第15章

Andmustnotweswimandtrytoreachtheshore：wewillhopethatArion’sdolphinorsomeothermiraculoushelpmaysaveus？ Isupposeso，hesaid。 Wellthen，letusseeifanywayofescapecanbefound。Weacknowledged——didwenot？thatdifferentnaturesoughttohavedifferentpursuits，andthatmen’sandwomen’snaturesaredifferent。Andnowwhatarewesaying？——thatdifferentnaturesoughttohavethesamepursuits，——thisistheinconsistencywhichischargeduponus。 Precisely。 Verily，Glaucon，Isaid，gloriousisthepoweroftheartofcontradiction！ Whydoyousayso？ BecauseIthinkthatmanyamanfallsintothepracticeagainsthiswill。Whenhethinksthatheisreasoningheisreallydisputing，justbecausehecannotdefineanddivide，andsoknowthatofwhichheisspeaking；andhewillpursueamerelyverbaloppositioninthespiritofcontentionandnotoffairdiscussion。 Yes，hereplied，suchisveryoftenthecase；butwhathasthattodowithusandourargument？ Agreatdeal；forthereiscertainlyadangerofourgettingunintentionallyintoaverbalopposition。 Inwhatway？ Why，wevaliantlyandpugnaciouslyinsistupontheverbaltruth，thatdifferentnaturesoughttohavedifferentpursuits，butweneverconsideredatallwhatwasthemeaningofsamenessordifferenceofnature，orwhywedistinguishedthemwhenweassigneddifferentpursuitstodifferentnaturesandthesametothesamenatures。 Why，no，hesaid，thatwasneverconsideredbyus。 Isaid：Supposethatbywayofillustrationweweretoaskthequestionwhetherthereisnotanoppositioninnaturebetweenbaldmenandhairymen；andifthisisadmittedbyus，then，ifbaldmenarecobblers，weshouldforbidthehairymentobecobblers，andconversely？ Thatwouldbeajest，hesaid。 Yes，Isaid，ajest；andwhy？becausewenevermeantwhenweconstructedtheState，thattheoppositionofnaturesshouldextendtoeverydifference，butonlytothosedifferenceswhichaffectedthepursuitinwhichtheindividualisengaged；weshouldhaveargued，forexample，thataphysicianandonewhoisinmindaphysicianmaybesaidtohavethesamenature。 True。 Whereasthephysicianandthecarpenterhavedifferentnatures？ Certainly。 Andif，Isaid，themaleandfemalesexappeartodifferintheirfitnessforanyartorpursuit，weshouldsaythatsuchpursuitorartoughttobeassignedtooneortheotherofthem；butifthedifferenceconsistsonlyinwomenbearingandmenbegettingchildren，thisdoesnotamounttoaproofthatawomandiffersfromamaninrespectofthesortofeducationsheshouldreceive；andweshallthereforecontinuetomaintainthatourguardiansandtheirwivesoughttohavethesamepursuits。 Verytrue，hesaid。 Next，weshallaskouropponenthow，inreferencetoanyofthepursuitsorartsofciviclife，thenatureofawomandiffersfromthatofaman？ Thatwillbequitefair。 Andperhapshe，likeyourself，willreplythattogiveasufficientanswerontheinstantisnoteasy；butafteralittlereflectionthereisnodifficulty。 Yes，perhaps。 Supposethenthatweinvitehimtoaccompanyusintheargument，andthenwemayhopetoshowhimthatthereisnothingpeculiarintheconstitutionofwomenwhichwouldaffectthemintheadministrationoftheState。 Byallmeans。 Letussaytohim：Comenow，andwewillaskyouaquestion： ——whenyouspokeofanaturegiftedornotgiftedinanyrespect，didyoumeantosaythatonemanwillacquireathingeasily，anotherwithdifficulty；alittlelearningwillleadtheonetodiscoveragreatdeal；whereastheother，aftermuchstudyandapplication，nosoonerlearnsthanheforgets；oragain，didyoumean，thattheonehasabodywhichisagoodservanttohismind，whilethebodyoftheotherisahindrancetohim？—wouldnotthesebethesortofdifferenceswhichdistinguishthemangiftedbynaturefromtheonewhoisungifted？ Noonewilldenythat。 Andcanyoumentionanypursuitofmankindinwhichthemalesexhasnotallthesegiftsandqualitiesinahigherdegreethanthefemale？NeedIwastetimeinspeakingoftheartofweaving，andthemanagementofpancakesandpreserves，inwhichwomankinddoesreallyappeartobegreat，andinwhichforhertobebeatenbyamanisofallthingsthemostabsurd？ Youarequiteright，hereplied，inmaintainingthegeneralinferiorityofthefemalesex：althoughmanywomenareinmanythingssuperiortomanymen，yetonthewholewhatyousayistrue。 Andifso，myfriend，Isaid，thereisnospecialfacultyofadministrationinastatewhichawomanhasbecausesheisawoman，orwhichamanhasbyvirtueofhissex，butthegiftsofnaturearealikediffusedinboth；allthepursuitsofmenarethepursuitsofwomenalso，butinallofthemawomanisinferiortoaman。 Verytrue。 Thenarewetoimposeallourenactmentsonmenandnoneofthemonwomen？ Thatwillneverdo。 Onewomanhasagiftofhealing，anothernot；oneisamusician，andanotherhasnomusicinhernature？ Verytrue。 Andonewomanhasaturnforgymnasticandmilitaryexercises，andanotherisunwarlikeandhatesgymnastics？ Certainly。 Andonewomanisaphilosopher，andanotherisanenemyofphilosophy；onehasspirit，andanotheriswithoutspirit？ Thatisalsotrue。 Thenonewomanwillhavethetemperofaguardian，andanothernot。Wasnottheselectionofthemaleguardiansdeterminedbydifferencesofthissort？ Yes。 Menandwomenalikepossessthequalitieswhichmakeaguardian； theydifferonlyintheircomparativestrengthorweakness。 Obviously。 Andthosewomenwhohavesuchqualitiesaretobeselectedasthecompanionsandcolleaguesofmenwhohavesimilarqualitiesandwhomtheyresembleincapacityandincharacter？ Verytrue。 Andoughtnotthesamenaturestohavethesamepursuits？ Theyought。 Then，asweweresayingbefore，thereisnothingunnaturalinassigningmusicandgymnastictothewivesoftheguardians——tothatpointwecomeroundagain。 Certainlynot。 Thelawwhichwethenenactedwasagreeabletonature，andthereforenotanimpossibilityormereaspiration；andthecontrarypractice，whichprevailsatpresent，isinrealityaviolationofnature。 Thatappearstobetrue。 Wehadtoconsider，first，whetherourproposalswerepossible，andsecondlywhethertheywerethemostbeneficial？ Yes。 Andthepossibilityhasbeenacknowledged？ Yes。 Theverygreatbenefithasnexttobeestablished？ Quiteso。 Youwilladmitthatthesameeducationwhichmakesamanagoodguardianwillmakeawomanagoodguardian；fortheiroriginalnatureisthesame？ Yes。 Ishouldliketoaskyouaquestion。 Whatisit？ Wouldyousaythatallmenareequalinexcellence，orisonemanbetterthananother？ Thelatter。 Andinthecommonwealthwhichwewerefoundingdoyouconceivetheguardianswhohavebeenbroughtuponourmodelsystemtobemoreperfectmen，orthecobblerswhoseeducationhasbeencobbling？ Whataridiculousquestion！ Youhaveansweredme，Ireplied：Well，andmaywenotfurthersaythatourguardiansarethebestofourcitizens？ Byfarthebest。 Andwillnottheirwivesbethebestwomen？ Yes，byfarthebest。 AndcantherebeanythingbetterfortheinterestsoftheStatethanthatthemenandwomenofaStateshouldbeasgoodaspossible？ Therecanbenothingbetter。 Andthisiswhattheartsofmusicandgymnastic，whenpresentinsuchmanneraswehavedescribed，willaccomplish？ Certainly。 ThenwehavemadeanenactmentnotonlypossiblebutinthehighestdegreebeneficialtotheState？ True。 Thenletthewivesofourguardiansstrip，fortheirvirtuewillbetheirrobe，andletthemshareinthetoilsofwarandthedefenceoftheircountry；onlyinthedistributionoflaboursthelighteraretobeassignedtothewomen，whoaretheweakernatures，butinotherrespectstheirdutiesaretobethesame。Andasforthemanwholaughsatnakedwomenexercisingtheirbodiesfromthebestofmotives，inhislaughterheispluckingAfruitofunripewisdom，andhehimselfisignorantofwhatheislaughingat，orwhatheisabout；——forthatis，andeverwillbe，thebestofsayings，Thattheusefulisthenobleandthehurtfulisthebase。 Verytrue。 Here，then，isonedifficultyinourlawaboutwomen，whichwemaysaythatwehavenowescaped；thewavehasnotswallowedusupaliveforenactingthattheguardiansofeithersexshouldhavealltheirpursuitsincommon；totheutilityandalsotothepossibilityofthisarrangementtheconsistencyoftheargumentwithitselfbearswitness。 Yes，thatwasamightywavewhichyouhaveescaped。 Yes，Isaid，butagreateriscoming；youwillofthiswhenyouseethenext。 Goon；letmesee。 Thelaw，Isaid，whichisthesequelofthisandofallthathaspreceded，istothefollowingeffect，——’thatthewivesofourguardiansaretobecommon，andtheirchildrenaretobecommon，andnoparentistoknowhisownchild，noranychildhisparent。’ Yes，hesaid，thatisamuchgreaterwavethantheother；andthepossibilityaswellastheutilityofsuchalawarefarmorequestionable。 Idonotthink，Isaid，thattherecanbeanydisputeabouttheverygreatutilityofhavingwivesandchildrenincommon；thepossibilityisquiteanothermatter，andwillbeverymuchdisputed。 Ithinkthatagoodmanydoubtsmayberaisedaboutboth。 Youimplythatthetwoquestionsmustbecombined，Ireplied。NowImeantthatyoushouldadmittheutility；andinthisway，asI thought；Ishouldescapefromoneofthem，andthentherewouldremainonlythepossibility。 Butthatlittleattemptisdetected，andthereforeyouwillpleasetogiveadefenceofboth。 Well，Isaid，Isubmittomyfate。Yetgrantmealittlefavour：letmefeastmymindwiththedreamasdaydreamersareinthehabitoffeastingthemselveswhentheyarewalkingalone；forbeforetheyhavediscoveredanymeansofeffectingtheirwishes——thatisamatterwhichnevertroublesthem——theywouldrathernottirethemselvesbythinkingaboutpossibilities；butassumingthatwhattheydesireisalreadygrantedtothem，theyproceedwiththeirplan，anddelightindetailingwhattheymeantodowhentheirwishhascometrue——thatisawaywhichtheyhaveofnotdoingmuchgoodtoacapacitywhichwasnevergoodformuch。NowImyselfambeginningtoloseheart，andIshouldlike，withyourpermission，topassoverthequestionofpossibilityatpresent。Assumingthereforethepossibilityoftheproposal，Ishallnowproceedtoenquirehowtherulerswillcarryoutthesearrangements，andIshalldemonstratethatourplan，ifexecuted，willbeofthegreatestbenefittotheStateandtotheguardians。Firstofall，then，ifyouhavenoobjection，Iwillendeavourwithyourhelptoconsidertheadvantagesofthemeasure； andhereafterthequestionofpossibility。 Ihavenoobjection；proceed。 First，Ithinkthatifourrulersandtheirauxiliariesaretobeworthyofthenamewhichtheybear，theremustbewillingnesstoobeyintheoneandthepowerofcommandintheother；theguardiansmustthemselvesobeythelaws，andtheymustalsoimitatethespiritoftheminanydetailswhichareentrustedtotheircare。 Thatisright，hesaid。 You，Isaid，whoaretheirlegislator，havingselectedthemen，willnowselectthewomenandgivethemtothem；——theymustbeasfaraspossibleoflikenatureswiththem；andtheymustliveincommonhousesandmeetatcommonmeals，Noneofthemwillhaveanythingspeciallyhisorherown；theywillbetogether，andwillbebroughtuptogether，andwillassociateatgymnasticexercises。Andsotheywillbedrawnbyanecessityoftheirnaturestohaveintercoursewitheachother——necessityisnottoostrongaword，Ithink？ Yes，hesaid；——necessity，notgeometrical，butanothersortofnecessitywhichloversknow，andwhichisfarmoreconvincingandconstrainingtothemassofmankind。 True，Isaid；andthis，Glaucon，likealltherest，mustproceedafteranorderlyfashion；inacityoftheblessed，licentiousnessisanunholythingwhichtherulerswillforbid。 Yes，hesaid，anditoughtnottobepermitted。 Thenclearlythenextthingwillbetomakematrimonysacredinthehighestdegree，andwhatismostbeneficialwillbedeemedsacred？ Exactly。 Andhowcanmarriagesbemademostbeneficial？——thatisaquestionwhichIputtoyou，becauseIseeinyourhousedogsforhunting，andofthenoblersortofbirdsnotafew。Now，Ibeseechyou，dotellme，haveyoueverattendedtotheirpairingandbreeding？ Inwhatparticulars？ Why，inthefirstplace，althoughtheyareallofagoodsort，arenotsomebetterthanothers？ True。 Anddoyoubreedfromthemallindifferently，ordoyoutakecaretobreedfromthebestonly？ Fromthebest。 Anddoyoutaketheoldestortheyoungest，oronlythoseofripeage？ Ichooseonlythoseofripeage。 Andifcarewasnottakeninthebreeding，yourdogsandbirdswouldgreatlydeteriorate？ Certainly。 Andthesameofhorsesandanimalsingeneral？ Undoubtedly。 Goodheavens！mydearfriend，Isaid，whatconsummateskillwillourrulersneedifthesameprincipleholdsofthehumanspecies！ Certainly，thesameprincipleholds；butwhydoesthisinvolveanyparticularskill？ Because，Isaid，ourrulerswilloftenhavetopractiseuponthebodycorporatewithmedicines。Nowyouknowthatwhenpatientsdonotrequiremedicines，buthaveonlytobeputunderaregimen，theinferiorsortofpractitionerisdeemedtobegoodenough；butwhenmedicinehastobegiven，thenthedoctorshouldbemoreofaman。 Thatisquitetrue，hesaid；buttowhatareyoualluding？ Imean，Ireplied，thatourrulerswillfindaconsiderabledoseoffalsehoodanddeceitnecessaryforthegoodoftheirsubjects：weweresayingthattheuseofallthesethingsregardedasmedicinesmightbeofadvantage。 Andwewereveryright。 Andthislawfuluseofthemseemslikelytobeoftenneededintheregulationsofmarriagesandbirths。 Howso？ Why，Isaid，theprinciplehasbeenalreadylaiddownthatthebestofeithersexshouldbeunitedwiththebestasoften，andtheinferiorwiththeinferior，asseldomaspossible；andthattheyshouldreartheoffspringoftheonesortofunion，butnotoftheother，iftheflockistobemaintainedinfirst—ratecondition。Nowthesegoingsonmustbeasecretwhichtherulersonlyknow，ortherewillbeafurtherdangerofourherd，astheguardiansmaybetermed，breakingoutintorebellion。 Verytrue。 Hadwenotbetterappointcertainfestivalsatwhichwewillbringtogetherthebridesandbridegrooms，andsacrificeswillbeofferedandsuitablehymenealsongscomposedbyourpoets：thenumberofweddingsisamatterwhichmustbelefttothediscretionoftherulers，whoseaimwillbetopreservetheaverageofpopulation？Therearemanyotherthingswhichtheywillhavetoconsider，suchastheeffectsofwarsanddiseasesandanysimilaragencies，inorderasfarasthisispossibletopreventtheStatefrombecomingeithertoolargeortoosmall。 Certainly，hereplied。 Weshallhavetoinventsomeingeniouskindoflotswhichthelessworthymaydrawoneachoccasionofourbringingthemtogether，andthentheywillaccusetheirownill—luckandnottherulers。 Tobesure，hesaid。 AndIthinkthatourbraverandbetteryouth，besidestheirotherhonoursandrewards，mighthavegreaterfacilitiesofintercoursewithwomengiventhem；theirbraverywillbeareason，andsuchfathersoughttohaveasmanysonsaspossible。 True。 Andtheproperofficers，whethermaleorfemaleorboth，forofficesaretobeheldbywomenaswellasbymen—— Yes—— Theproperofficerswilltaketheoffspringofthegoodparentstothepenorfold，andtheretheywilldepositthemwithcertainnurseswhodwellinaseparatequarter；buttheoffspringoftheinferior，orofthebetterwhentheychancetobedeformed，willbeputawayinsomemysterious，unknownplace，astheyshouldbe。 Yes，hesaid，thatmustbedoneifthebreedoftheguardiansistobekeptpure。 Theywillprovidefortheirnurture，andwillbringthemotherstothefoldwhentheyarefullofmilk，takingthegreatestpossiblecarethatnomotherrecognizesherownchild；andotherwet—nursesmaybeengagedifmorearerequired。Carewillalsobetakenthattheprocessofsucklingshallnotbeprotractedtoolong；andthemotherswillhavenogettingupatnightorothertrouble，butwillhandoverallthissortofthingtothenursesandattendants。 Yousupposethewivesofourguardianstohaveafineeasytimeofitwhentheyarehavingchildren。 Why，saidI，andsotheyought。Letus，however，proceedwithourscheme。Weweresayingthattheparentsshouldbeintheprimeoflife？ Verytrue。 Andwhatistheprimeoflife？Mayitnotbedefinedasaperiodofabouttwentyyearsinawoman’slife，andthirtyinaman’s？ Whichyearsdoyoumeantoinclude？ Awoman，Isaid，attwentyyearsofagemaybegintobearchildrentotheState，andcontinuetobearthemuntilforty；amanmaybeginatfive—and—twenty，whenhehaspassedthepointatwhichthepulseoflifebeatsquickest，andcontinuetobegetchildrenuntilhebefifty—five。 Certainly，hesaid，bothinmenandwomenthoseyearsaretheprimeofphysicalaswellasofintellectualvigour。 Anyoneaboveorbelowtheprescribedageswhotakespartinthepublichymenealsshallbesaidtohavedoneanunholyandunrighteousthing；thechildofwhichheisthefather，ifitstealsintolife，willhavebeenconceivedunderauspicesveryunlikethesacrificesandprayers，whichateachhymenealpriestessesandpriestandthewholecitywilloffer，thatthenewgenerationmaybebetterandmoreusefulthantheirgoodandusefulparents，whereashischildwillbetheoffspringofdarknessandstrangelust。 Verytrue，hereplied。 Andthesamelawwillapplytoanyoneofthosewithintheprescribedagewhoformsaconnectionwithanywomanintheprimeoflifewithoutthesanctionoftherulers；forweshallsaythatheisraisingupabastardtotheState，uncertifiedandunconsecrated。 Verytrue，hereplied。 Thisapplies，however，onlytothosewhoarewithinthespecifiedage：afterthatweallowthemtorangeatwill，exceptthatamanmaynotmarryhisdaughterorhisdaughter’sdaughter，orhismotherorhismother’smother；andwomen，ontheotherhand，areprohibitedfrommarryingtheirsonsorfathers，orson’ssonorfather’sfather，andsoonineitherdirection。Andwegrantallthis，accompanyingthepermissionwithstrictorderstopreventanyembryowhichmaycomeintobeingfromseeingthelight；andifanyforceawaytothebirth，theparentsmustunderstandthattheoffspringofsuchanunioncannotbemaintained，andarrangeaccordingly。 Thatalso，hesaid，isareasonableproposition。Buthowwilltheyknowwhoarefathersanddaughters，andsoon？ Theywillneverknow。Thewaywillbethis：——datingfromthedayofthehymeneal，thebridegroomwhowasthenmarriedwillcallallthemalechildrenwhoarebornintheseventhandtenthmonthafterwardshissons，andthefemalechildrenhisdaughters，andtheywillcallhimfather，andhewillcalltheirchildrenhisgrandchildren，andtheywillcalltheeldergenerationgrandfathersandgrandmothers。Allwhowerebegottenatthetimewhentheirfathersandmotherscametogetherwillbecalledtheirbrothersandsisters，andthese，asI