第14章

Andso，aftermuchtossing，wehavereachedland，andarefairlyagreedthatthesameprincipleswhichexistintheStateexistalsointheindividual，andthattheyarethreeinnumber。 Exactly。 Mustwenottheninferthattheindividualiswiseinthesameway，andinvirtueofthesamequalitywhichmakestheStatewise？ Certainly。 AlsothatthesamequalitywhichconstitutescourageintheStateconstitutescourageintheindividual，andthatboththeStateandtheindividualbearthesamerelationtoalltheothervirtues？ Assuredly。 AndtheindividualwillbeacknowledgedbyustobejustinthesamewayinwhichtheStateisjust？ Thatfollows，ofcourse。 WecannotbutrememberthatthejusticeoftheStateconsistedineachofthethreeclassesdoingtheworkofitsownclass？ Wearenotverylikelytohaveforgotten，hesaid。 Wemustrecollectthattheindividualinwhomtheseveralqualitiesofhisnaturedotheirownworkwillbejust，andwilldohisownwork？ Yes，hesaid，wemustrememberthattoo。 Andoughtnottherationalprinciple，whichiswise，andhasthecareofthewholesoul，torule，andthepassionateorspiritedprincipletobethesubjectandally？ Certainly。 And，asweweresaying，theunitedinfluenceofmusicandgymnasticwillbringthemintoaccord，nervingandsustainingthereasonwithnoblewordsandlessons，andmoderatingandsoothingandcivilizingthewildnessofpassionbyharmonyandrhythm？ Quitetrue，hesaid。 Andthesetwo，thusnurturedandeducated，andhavinglearnedtrulytoknowtheirownfunctions，willruleovertheconcupiscent，whichineachofusisthelargestpartofthesoulandbynaturemostinsatiableofgain；overthistheywillkeepguard，lest，waxinggreatandstrongwiththefulnessofbodilypleasures，astheyaretermed，theconcupiscentsoul，nolongerconfinedtoherownsphere，shouldattempttoenslaveandrulethosewhoarenothernatural—bornsubjects，andoverturnthewholelifeofman？ Verytrue，hesaid。 Bothtogetherwilltheynotbethebestdefendersofthewholesoulandthewholebodyagainstattacksfromwithout；theonecounselling，andtheotherfightingunderhisleader，andcourageouslyexecutinghiscommandsandcounsels？ True。 Andheistobedeemedcourageouswhosespiritretainsinpleasureandinpainthecommandsofreasonaboutwhatheoughtoroughtnottofear？ Right，hereplied。 Andhimwecallwisewhohasinhimthatlittlepartwhichrules，andwhichproclaimsthesecommands；thatparttoobeingsupposedtohaveaknowledgeofwhatisfortheinterestofeachofthethreepartsandofthewhole？ Assuredly。 Andwouldyounotsaythatheistemperatewhohasthesesameelementsinfriendlyharmony，inwhomtheonerulingprincipleofreason，andthetwosubjectonesofspiritanddesireareequallyagreedthatreasonoughttorule，anddonotrebel？ Certainly，hesaid，thatisthetrueaccountoftemperancewhetherintheStateorindividual。 Andsurely，Isaid，wehaveexplainedagainandagainhowandbyvirtueofwhatqualityamanwillbejust。 Thatisverycertain。 Andisjusticedimmerintheindividual，andisherformdifferent，orisshethesamewhichwefoundhertobeintheState？ Thereisnodifferenceinmyopinion，hesaid。 Because，ifanydoubtisstilllingeringinourminds，afewcommonplaceinstanceswillsatisfyusofthetruthofwhatIamsaying。 Whatsortofinstancesdoyoumean？ Ifthecaseisputtous，mustwenotadmitthatthejustState，orthemanwhoistrainedintheprinciplesofsuchaState，willbelesslikelythantheunjusttomakeawaywithadepositofgoldorsilver？Wouldanyonedenythis？ Noone，hereplied。 Willthejustmanorcitizeneverbeguiltyofsacrilegeortheft，ortreacheryeithertohisfriendsortohiscountry？ Never。 Neitherwillheeverbreakfaithwheretherehavebeenoathsoragreements？ Impossible。 Noonewillbelesslikelytocommitadultery，ortodishonourhisfatherandmother，ortofallinhisreligiousduties？ Noone。 Andthereasonisthateachpartofhimisdoingitsownbusiness，whetherinrulingorbeingruled？ Exactlyso。 Areyousatisfiedthenthatthequalitywhichmakessuchmenandsuchstatesisjustice，ordoyouhopetodiscoversomeother？ NotI，indeed。 Thenourdreamhasbeenrealised；andthesuspicionwhichweentertainedatthebeginningofourworkofconstruction，thatsomedivinepowermusthaveconductedustoaprimaryformofjustice，hasnowbeenverified？ Yes，certainly。 Andthedivisionoflabourwhichrequiredthecarpenterandtheshoemakerandtherestofthecitizenstobedoingeachhisownbusiness，andnotanother’s，wasashadowofjustice，andforthatreasonitwasofuse？ Clearly。 Butinrealityjusticewassuchasweweredescribing，beingconcernedhowever，notwiththeoutwardman，butwiththeinward，whichisthetrueselfandconcernmentofman：forthejustmandoesnotpermittheseveralelementswithinhimtointerferewithoneanother，oranyofthemtodotheworkofothers，——hesetsinorderhisowninnerlife，andishisownmasterandhisownlaw，andatpeacewithhimself；andwhenhehasboundtogetherthethreeprincipleswithinhim，whichmaybecomparedtothehigher，lower，andmiddlenotesofthescale，andtheintermediateintervals——whenhehasboundallthesetogether，andisnolongermany，buthasbecomeoneentirelytemperateandperfectlyadjustednature，thenheproceedstoact，ifhehastoact，whetherinamatterofproperty，orinthetreatmentofthebody，orinsomeaffairofpoliticsorprivatebusiness；alwaysthinkingandcallingthatwhichpreservesandco—operateswiththisharmoniouscondition，justandgoodaction，andtheknowledgewhichpresidesoverit，wisdom，andthatwhichatanytimeimpairsthiscondition，hewillcallunjustaction，andtheopinionwhichpresidesoveritignorance。 Youhavesaidtheexacttruth，Socrates。 Verygood；andifweweretoaffirmthatwehaddiscoveredthejustmanandthejustState，andthenatureofjusticeineachofthem，weshouldnotbetellingafalsehood？ Mostcertainlynot。 Maywesayso，then？ Letussayso。 Andnow，Isaid，injusticehastobeconsidered。 Clearly。 Mustnotinjusticebeastrifewhicharisesamongthethreeprinciples——ameddlesomeness，andinterference，andrisingupofapartofthesoulagainstthewhole，anassertionofunlawfulauthority，whichismadebyarebellioussubjectagainstatrueprince，ofwhomheisthenaturalvassal，——whatisallthisconfusionanddelusionbutinjustice，andintemperanceandcowardiceandignorance，andeveryformofvice？ Exactlyso。 Andifthenatureofjusticeandinjusticebeknown，thenthemeaningofactingunjustlyandbeingunjust，or，again，ofactingjustly，willalsobeperfectlyclear？ Whatdoyoumean？hesaid。 Why，Isaid，theyarelikediseaseandhealth；beinginthesouljustwhatdiseaseandhealthareinthebody。 Howso？hesaid。 Why，Isaid，thatwhichishealthycauseshealth，andthatwhichisunhealthycausesdisease。 Yes。 Andjustactionscausejustice，andunjustactionscauseinjustice？ Thatiscertain。 Andthecreationofhealthistheinstitutionofanaturalorderandgovernmentofonebyanotherinthepartsofthebody；andthecreationofdiseaseistheproductionofastateofthingsatvariancewiththisnaturalorder？ True。 Andisnotthecreationofjusticetheinstitutionofanaturalorderandgovernmentofonebyanotherinthepartsofthesoul，andthecreationofinjusticetheproductionofastateofthingsatvariancewiththenaturalorder？ Exactlyso，hesaid。 Thenvirtueisthehealthandbeautyandwell—beingofthesoul，andvicethediseaseandweaknessanddeformityofthesame？ True。 Anddonotgoodpracticesleadtovirtue，andevilpracticestovice？ Assuredly。 Stillouroldquestionofthecomparativeadvantageofjusticeandinjusticehasnotbeenanswered：Whichisthemoreprofitable，tobejustandactjustlyandpractisevirtue，whetherseenorunseenofgodsandmen，ortobeunjustandactunjustly，ifonlyunpunishedandunreformed？ Inmyjudgment，Socrates，thequestionhasnowbecomeridiculous。Weknowthat，whenthebodilyconstitutionisgone，lifeisnolongerendurable，thoughpamperedwithallkindsofmeatsanddrinks，andhavingallwealthandallpower；andshallwebetoldthatwhentheveryessenceofthevitalprincipleisunderminedandcorrupted，lifeisstillworthhavingtoaman，ifonlyhebeallowedtodowhateverhelikeswiththesingleexceptionthatheisnottoacquirejusticeandvirtue，ortoescapefrominjusticeandvice； assumingthembothtobesuchaswehavedescribed？ Yes，Isaid，thequestionis，asyousay，ridiculous。Still，aswearenearthespotatwhichwemayseethetruthintheclearestmannerwithourowneyes，letusnotfaintbytheway。 Certainlynot，hereplied。 Comeuphither，Isaid，andbeholdthevariousformsofvice，thoseofthem，Imean，whichareworthlookingat。 Iamfollowingyou，hereplied：proceed。 Isaid，Theargumentseemstohavereachedaheightfromwhich，asfromsometowerofspeculation，amanmaylookdownandseethatvirtueisone，butthattheformsofviceareinnumerable；therebeingfourspecialoneswhicharedeservingofnote。 Whatdoyoumean？hesaid。 Imean，Ireplied，thatthereappeartobeasmanyformsofthesoulastherearedistinctformsoftheState。 Howmany？ TherearefiveoftheState，andfiveofthesoul，Isaid。 Whatarethey？ Thefirst，Isaid，isthatwhichwehavebeendescribing，andwhichmaybesaidtohavetwonames，monarchyandaristocracy，accordinglyasruleisexercisedbyonedistinguishedmanorbymany。 True，hereplied。 ButIregardthetwonamesasdescribingoneformonly；forwhetherthegovernmentisinthehandsofoneormany，ifthegovernorshavebeentrainedinthemannerwhichwehavesupposed，thefundamentallawsoftheStatewillbemaintained。 Thatistrue，hereplied。 BOOKV SOCRATES—GLAUCON—ADEIMANTUS SUCHisthegoodandtrueCityorState，andthegoodandmanisofthesamepattern；andifthisisrighteveryotheriswrong；andtheevilisonewhichaffectsnotonlytheorderingoftheState，butalsotheregulationoftheindividualsoul，andisexhibitedinfourforms。 Whatarethey？hesaid。 Iwasproceedingtotelltheorderinwhichthefourevilformsappearedtometosucceedoneanother，whenPolemarchus，whowassittingalittlewayoff，justbeyondAdeimantus，begantowhispertohim：stretchingforthhishand，hetookholdoftheupperpartofhiscoatbytheshoulder，anddrewhimtowardshim，leaningforwardhimselfsoastobequitecloseandsayingsomethinginhisear，ofwhichIonlycaughtthewords，’Shallwelethimoff，orwhatshallwedo？ Certainlynot，saidAdeimantus，raisinghisvoice。 Whoisit，Isaid，whomyouarerefusingtoletoff？ You，hesaid。 Irepeated，WhyamIespeciallynottobeletoff？ Why，hesaid，wethinkthatyouarelazy，andmeantocheatusoutofawholechapterwhichisaveryimportantpartofthestory；andyoufancythatweshallnotnoticeyourairywayofproceeding；asifitwereself—evidenttoeverybody，thatinthematterofwomenandchildren’friendshaveallthingsincommon。’ AndwasInotright，Adeimantus？ Yes，hesaid；butwhatisrightinthisparticularcase，likeeverythingelse，requirestobeexplained；forcommunitymaybeofmanykinds。Please，therefore，tosaywhatsortofcommunityyoumean。 Wehavebeenlongexpectingthatyouwouldtellussomethingaboutthefamilylifeofyourcitizens——howtheywillbringchildrenintotheworld，andrearthemwhentheyhavearrived，and，ingeneral，whatisthenatureofthiscommunityofwomenandchildren—forweareofopinionthattherightorwrongmanagementofsuchmatterswillhaveagreatandparamountinfluenceontheStateforgoodorforevil。Andnow，sincethequestionisstillundetermined，andyouaretakinginhandanotherState，wehaveresolved，asyouheard，nottoletyougountilyougiveanaccountofallthis。 Tothatresolution，saidGlaucon，youmayregardmeassayingAgreed。 SOCRATES—ADEIMANTUS—GLAUCON—THRASYMACHUS Andwithoutmoreado，saidThrasymachus，youmayconsiderusalltobeequallyagreed。 Isaid，Youknownotwhatyouaredoinginthusassailingme：WhatanargumentareyouraisingabouttheState！JustasIthoughtthatIhadfinished，andwasonlytoogladthatIhadlaidthisquestiontosleep，andwasreflectinghowfortunateIwasinyouracceptanceofwhatIthensaid，youaskmetobeginagainattheveryfoundation，ignorantofwhatahornet’snestofwordsyouarestirring。NowI foresawthisgatheringtrouble，andavoidedit。 Forwhatpurposedoyouconceivethatwehavecomehere，saidThrasymachus，——tolookforgold，ortoheardiscourse？ Yes，butdiscourseshouldhavealimit。 Yes，Socrates，saidGlaucon，andthewholeoflifeistheonlylimitwhichwisemenassigntothehearingofsuchdiscourses。Butnevermindaboutus；takeheartyourselfandanswerthequestioninyourownway：Whatsortofcommunityofwomenandchildrenisthiswhichistoprevailamongourguardians？andhowshallwemanagetheperiodbetweenbirthandeducation，whichseemstorequirethegreatestcare？ Tellushowthesethingswillbe。 Yes，mysimplefriend，buttheansweristhereverseofeasy；manymoredoubtsariseaboutthisthanaboutourpreviousconclusions。 Forthepracticabilityofwhatissaidmaybedoubted；andlookedatinanotherpointofview，whetherthescheme，ifeversopracticable，wouldbeforthebest，isalsodoubtful。HenceIfeelareluctancetoapproachthesubject，lestouraspiration，mydearfriend，shouldturnouttobeadreamonly。 Fearnot，hereplied，foryouraudiencewillnotbeharduponyou； theyarenotscepticalorhostile。 Isaid：Mygoodfriend，Isupposethatyoumeantoencouragemebythesewords。 Yes，hesaid。 Thenletmetellyouthatyouaredoingjustthereverse；theencouragementwhichyouofferwouldhavebeenallverywellhadI myselfbelievedthatIknewwhatIwastalkingabout：todeclarethetruthaboutmattersofhighinterestwhichamanhonoursandlovesamongwisemenwholovehimneedoccasionnofearorfalteringinhismind；buttocarryonanargumentwhenyouareyourselfonlyahesitatingenquirer，whichismycondition，isadangerousandslipperything；andthedangerisnotthatIshallbelaughedat（ofwhichthefearwouldbechildish），butthatIshallmissthetruthwhereIhavemostneedtobesureofmyfooting，anddragmyfriendsaftermeinmyfall。AndIprayNemesisnottovisituponmethewordswhichIamgoingtoutter。ForIdoindeedbelievethattobeaninvoluntaryhomicideisalesscrimethantobeadeceiveraboutbeautyorgoodnessorjusticeinthematteroflaws。AndthatisariskwhichIwouldratherrunamongenemiesthanamongfriends，andthereforeyoudowelltoencourageme。 Glauconlaughedandsaid：Wellthen，Socrates，incaseyouandyourargumentdousanyseriousinjuryyoushallbeacquittedbeforehandoftheandshallnotbeheldtobeadeceiver；takecouragethenandspeak。 Well，Isaid，thelawsaysthatwhenamanisacquittedheisfreefromguilt，andwhatholdsatlawmayholdinargument。 Thenwhyshouldyoumind？ Well，Ireplied，IsupposethatImustretracemystepsandsaywhatIperhapsoughttohavesaidbeforeintheproperplace。Thepartofthemenhasbeenplayedout，andnowproperlyenoughcomestheturnofthewomen。OfthemIwillproceedtospeak，andthemorereadilysinceIaminvitedbyyou。 Formenbornandeducatedlikeourcitizens，theonlyway，inmyopinion，ofarrivingatarightconclusionaboutthepossessionanduseofwomenandchildrenistofollowthepathonwhichweoriginallystarted，whenwesaidthatthemenweretobetheguardiansandwatchdogsoftheherd。 True。 Letusfurthersupposethebirthandeducationofourwomentobesubjecttosimilarornearlysimilarregulations；thenweshallseewhethertheresultaccordswithourdesign。 Whatdoyoumean？ WhatImeanmaybeputintotheformofaquestion，Isaid：Aredogsdividedintohesandshes，ordotheybothshareequallyinhuntingandinkeepingwatchandintheotherdutiesofdogs？ordoweentrusttothemalestheentireandexclusivecareoftheflocks，whileweleavethefemalesathome，undertheideathatthebearingandsucklingtheirpuppiesislabourenoughforthem？ No，hesaid，theysharealike；theonlydifferencebetweenthemisthatthemalesarestrongerandthefemalesweaker。 Butcanyouusedifferentanimalsforthesamepurpose，unlesstheyarebredandfedinthesameway？ Youcannot。 Then，ifwomenaretohavethesamedutiesasmen，theymusthavethesamenurtureandeducation？ Yes。 Theeducationwhichwasassignedtothemenwasmusicandgymnastic。 Yes。 Thenwomenmustbetaughtmusicandgymnasticandalsotheartofwar，whichtheymustpractiselikethemen？ Thatistheinference，Isuppose。 Ishouldratherexpect，Isaid，thatseveralofourproposals，iftheyarecarriedout，beingunusual，mayappearridiculous。 Nodoubtofit。 Yes，andthemostridiculousthingofallwillbethesightofwomennakedinthepalaestra，exercisingwiththemen，especiallywhentheyarenolongeryoung；theycertainlywillnotbeavisionofbeauty，anymorethantheenthusiasticoldmenwhoinspiteofwrinklesanduglinesscontinuetofrequentthegymnasia。 Yes，indeed，hesaid：accordingtopresentnotionstheproposalwouldbethoughtridiculous。 Butthen，Isaid，aswehavedeterminedtospeakourminds，wemustnotfearthejestsofthewitswhichwillbedirectedagainstthissortofinnovation；howtheywilltalkofwomen’sattainmentsbothinmusicandgymnastic，andaboveallabouttheirwearingarmourandridinguponhorseback！ Verytrue，hereplied。 Yethavingbegunwemustgoforwardtotheroughplacesofthelaw；atthesametimebeggingofthesegentlemenforonceintheirlifetobeserious。Notlongago，asweshallremindthem，theHelleneswereoftheopinion，whichisstillgenerallyreceivedamongthebarbarians，thatthesightofanakedmanwasridiculousandimproper；andwhenfirsttheCretansandthentheLacedaemoniansintroducedthecustom，thewitsofthatdaymightequallyhaveridiculedtheinnovation。 Nodoubt。 Butwhenexperienceshowedthattoletallthingsbeuncoveredwasfarbetterthantocoverthemup，andtheludicrouseffecttotheoutwardeyevanishedbeforethebetterprinciplewhichreasonasserted，thenthemanwasperceivedtobeafoolwhodirectstheshaftsofhisridiculeatanyothersightbutthatoffollyandvice，orseriouslyinclinestoweighthebeautifulbyanyotherstandardbutthatofthegood。 Verytrue，hereplied。 First，then，whetherthequestionistobeputinjestorinearnest，letuscometoanunderstandingaboutthenatureofwoman：Isshecapableofsharingeitherwhollyorpartiallyintheactionsofmen，ornotatall？Andistheartofwaroneofthoseartsinwhichshecanorcannotshare？Thatwillbethebestwayofcommencingtheenquiry，andwillprobablyleadtothefairestconclusion。 Thatwillbemuchthebestway。 Shallwetaketheothersidefirstandbeginbyarguingagainstourselves；inthismannertheadversary’spositionwillnotbeundefended。 Whynot？hesaid。 Thenletusputaspeechintothemouthsofouropponents。Theywillsay：’SocratesandGlaucon，noadversaryneedconvictyou，foryouyourselves，atthefirstfoundationoftheState，admittedtheprinciplethateverybodywastodotheoneworksuitedtohisownnature。’Andcertainly，ifIamnotmistaken，suchanadmissionwasmadebyus。’Anddonotthenaturesofmenandwomendifferverymuchindeed？’Andweshallreply：Ofcoursetheydo。Thenweshallbeasked，’Whetherthetasksassignedtomenandtowomenshouldnotbedifferent，andsuchasareagreeabletotheirdifferentnatures？’ Certainlytheyshould。’Butifso，haveyounotfallenintoaseriousinconsistencyinsayingthatmenandwomen，whosenaturesaresoentirelydifferent，oughttoperformthesameactions？’ ——Whatdefencewillyoumakeforus，mygoodSir，againstanyonewhoofferstheseobjections？ Thatisnotaneasyquestiontoanswerwhenaskedsuddenly；andI shallandIdobegofyoutodrawoutthecaseonourside。 Thesearetheobjections，Glaucon，andtherearemanyothersofalikekind，whichIforesawlongago；theymademeafraidandreluctanttotakeinhandanylawaboutthepossessionandnurtureofwomenandchildren。 ByZeus，hesaid，theproblemtobesolvedisanythingbuteasy。 Whyyes，Isaid，butthefactisthatwhenamanisoutofhisdepth，whetherhehasfallenintoalittleswimmingbathorintomid—ocean，hehastoswimallthesame。 Verytrue。