第8章

Thatwilldo，hesaid。 Andwhatdoyouthinkofasecondprinciple？ShallIaskyouwhetherGodisamagician，andofanaturetoappearinsidiouslynowinoneshape，andnowinanother——sometimeshimselfchangingandpassingintomanyforms，sometimesdeceivinguswiththesemblanceofsuchtransformations；orisheoneandthesameimmutablyfixedinhisownproperimage？ Icannotansweryou，hesaid，withoutmorethought。 Well，Isaid；butifwesupposeachangeinanything，thatchangemustbeeffectedeitherbythethingitself，orbysomeotherthing？ Mostcertainly。 Andthingswhichareattheirbestarealsoleastliabletobealteredordiscomposed；forexample，whenhealthiestandstrongest，thehumanframeisleastliabletobeaffectedbymeatsanddrinks，andtheplantwhichisinthefullestvigouralsosuffersleastfromwindsortheheatofthesunoranysimilarcauses。 Ofcourse。 Andwillnotthebravestandwisestsoulbeleastconfusedorderangedbyanyexternalinfluence？ True。 Andthesameprinciple，asIshouldsuppose，appliestoallcompositethings——furniture，houses，garments；whengoodandwellmade，theyareleastalteredbytimeandcircumstances。 Verytrue。 Theneverythingwhichisgood，whethermadebyartornature，orboth，isleastliabletosufferchangefromwithout？ True。 ButsurelyGodandthethingsofGodareineverywayperfect？ Ofcoursetheyare。 Thenhecanhardlybecompelledbyexternalinfluencetotakemanyshapes？ Hecannot。 Butmayhenotchangeandtransformhimself？ Clearly，hesaid，thatmustbethecaseifheischangedatall。 Andwillhethenchangehimselfforthebetterandfairer，orfortheworseandmoreunsightly？ Ifhechangeatallhecanonlychangefortheworse，forwecannotsupposehimtobedeficienteitherinvirtueorbeauty。 Verytrue，Adeimantus；butthen，wouldanyone，whetherGodorman，desiretomakehimselfworse？ Impossible。 ThenitisimpossiblethatGodshouldeverbewillingtochange； being，asissupposed，thefairestandbestthatisconceivable，everygodremainsabsolutelyandforeverinhisownform。 Thatnecessarilyfollows，hesaid，inmyjudgment。 Then，Isaid，mydearfriend，letnoneofthepoetstellusthatThegods，takingthedisguiseofstrangersfromotherlands，walkupanddowncitiesinallsortsofforms； andletnooneslanderProteusandThetis，neitherletanyone，eitherintragedyorinanyotherkindofpoetry，introduceHeredisguisedinthelikenessofapriestessaskinganalmsForthelife—givingdaughtersofInachustheriverofArgos； ——letushavenomoreliesofthatsort。Neithermustwehavemothersundertheinfluenceofthepoetsscaringtheirchildrenwithabadversionofthesemyths——tellinghowcertaingods，astheysay，’Goaboutbynightinthelikenessofsomanystrangersandindiversforms’；butletthemtakeheedlesttheymakecowardsoftheirchildren，andatthesametimespeakblasphemyagainstthegods。 Heavenforbid，hesaid。 Butalthoughthegodsarethemselvesunchangeable，stillbywitchcraftanddeceptiontheymaymakeusthinkthattheyappearinvariousforms？ Perhaps，hereplied。 Well，butcanyouimaginethatGodwillbewillingtolie，whetherinwordordeed，ortoputforthaphantomofhimself？ Icannotsay，hereplied。 Doyounotknow，Isaid，thatthetruelie，ifsuchanexpressionmaybeallowed，ishatedofgodsandmen？ Whatdoyoumean？hesaid。 Imeanthatnooneiswillinglydeceivedinthatwhichisthetruestandhighestpartofhimself，oraboutthetruestandhighestmatters；there，aboveall，heismostafraidofaliehavingpossessionofhim。 Still，hesaid，Idonotcomprehendyou。 Thereasonis，Ireplied，thatyouattributesomeprofoundmeaningtomywords；butIamonlysayingthatdeception，orbeingdeceivedoruninformedaboutthehighestrealitiesinthehighestpartofthemselves，whichisthesoul，andinthatpartofthemtohaveandtoholdthelie，iswhatmankindleastlike；——that，Isay，iswhattheyutterlydetest。 Thereisnothingmorehatefultothem。 And，asIwasjustnowremarking，thisignoranceinthesoulofhimwhoisdeceivedmaybecalledthetruelie；forthelieinwordsisonlyakindofimitationandshadowyimageofapreviousaffectionofthesoul，notpureunadulteratedfalsehood。AmInotright？ Perfectlyright。 Thetruelieishatednotonlybythegods，butalsobymen？ Yes。 Whereasthelieinwordsisincertaincasesusefulandnothateful； indealingwithenemies——thatwouldbeaninstance；oragain，whenthosewhomwecallourfriendsinafitofmadnessorillusionaregoingtodosomeharm，thenitisusefulandisasortofmedicineorpreventive；alsointhetalesofmythology，ofwhichwewerejustnowspeaking——becausewedonotknowthetruthaboutancienttimes，wemakefalsehoodasmuchliketruthaswecan，andsoturnittoaccount。 Verytrue，hesaid。 ButcananyofthesereasonsapplytoGod？Canwesupposethatheisignorantofantiquity，andthereforehasrecoursetoinvention？ Thatwouldberidiculous，hesaid。 ThenthelyingpoethasnoplaceinourideaofGod？ Ishouldsaynot。 Orperhapshemaytellaliebecauseheisafraidofenemies？ Thatisinconceivable。 Buthemayhavefriendswhoaresenselessormad？ ButnomadorsenselesspersoncanbeafriendofGod。 ThennomotivecanbeimaginedwhyGodshouldlie？ Nonewhatever。 Thenthesuperhumananddivineisabsolutelyincapableoffalsehood？ Yes。 ThenisGodperfectlysimpleandtruebothinwordanddeed；hechangesnot；hedeceivesnot，eitherbysignorword，bydreamorwakingvision。 Yourthoughts，hesaid，arethereflectionofmyown。 Youagreewithmethen，Isaid，thatthisisthesecondtypeorforminwhichweshouldwriteandspeakaboutdivinethings。Thegodsarenotmagicianswhotransformthemselves，neitherdotheydeceivemankindinanyway。 Igrantthat。 Then，althoughweareadmirersofHomer，wedonotadmirethelyingdreamwhichZeussendstoAgamemnon；neitherwillwepraisetheversesofAeschylusinwhichThetissaysthatApolloathernuptialsWascelebratinginsongherfairprogenywhosedaysweretohelong，andtoknownosickness。Andwhenhehadspokenofmylotasinallthingsblessedofheavenheraisedanoteoftriumphandcheeredmysoul。AndIthoughtthatthewordofPhoebusbeingdivineandfullofprophecy，wouldnotfail。Andnowhehimselfwhoutteredthestrain，hewhowaspresentatthebanquet，andwhosaidthis——heitiswhohasslainmyson。 Thesearethekindofsentimentsaboutthegodswhichwillarouseouranger；andhewhouttersthemshallberefusedachorus；neithershallweallowteacherstomakeuseofthemintheinstructionoftheyoung，meaning，aswedo，thatourguardians，asfarasmencanbe，shouldbetrueworshippersofthegodsandlikethem。 Ientirelyagree，besaid，intheseprinciples，andpromisetomakethemmylaws。 BOOKIII SOCRATES—ADEIMANTUS SUCHthen，Isaid，areourprinciplesoftheology——sometalesaretobetold，andothersarenottobetoldtoourdisciplesfromtheiryouthupwards，ifwemeanthemtohonourthegodsandtheirparents，andtovaluefriendshipwithoneanother。 Yes；andIthinkthatourprinciplesareright，hesaid。 Butiftheyaretobecourageous，musttheynotlearnotherlessonsbesidesthese，andlessonsofsuchakindaswilltakeawaythefearofdeath？Cananymanbecourageouswhohasthefearofdeathinhim？ Certainlynot，hesaid。 Andcanhebefearlessofdeath，orwillhechoosedeathinbattleratherthandefeatandslavery，whobelievestheworldbelowtoberealandterrible？ Impossible。 Thenwemustassumeacontroloverthenarratorsofthisclassoftalesaswellasovertheothers，andbegthemnotsimplytobutrathertocommendtheworldbelow，intimatingtothemthattheirdescriptionsareuntrue，andwilldoharmtoourfuturewarriors。 Thatwillbeourduty，hesaid。 Then，Isaid，weshallhavetoobliteratemanyobnoxiouspassages，beginningwiththeverses，Iwouldratherheaserfonthelandofapoorandportionlessmanthanruleoverallthedeadwhohavecometonought。 Wemustalsoexpungetheverse，whichtellsushowPlutofeared，Lestthemansionsgrimandsqualidwhichthegodsabhorshouldheseenbothofmortalsandimmortals。 Andagain： Oheavens！verilyinthehouseofHadesthereissoulandghostlyformbutnomindatall！ AgainofTiresias：—— [TohimevenafterdeathdidPersephonegrantmind，]thathealoneshouldbewise；buttheothersoulsareflittingshades。 Again：—— ThesoulflyingfromthelimbshadgonetoHades，lamentngherfate，leavingmanhoodandyouth。 Again：—— Andthesoul，withshrillingcry，passedlikesmokebeneaththeearth。 And，—— Asbatsinhollowofmysticcavern，wheneveranyofthehasdroppedoutofthestringandfallsfromtherock，flyshrillingandclingtooneanother，sodidtheywithshrillingcryholdtogetherastheymoved。 AndwemustbegHomerandtheotherpoetsnottobeangryifwestrikeouttheseandsimilarpassages，notbecausetheyareunpoetical，orunattractivetothepopularear，butbecausethegreaterthepoeticalcharmofthem，thelessaretheymeetfortheearsofboysandmenwhoaremeanttobefree，andwhoshouldfearslaverymorethandeath。 Undoubtedly。 Alsoweshallhavetorejectalltheterribleandappallingnamesdescribetheworldbelow——CocytusandStyx，ghostsundertheearth，andsaplessshades，andanysimilarwordsofwhichtheverymentioncausesashuddertopassthroughtheinmostsoulofhimwhohearsthem。Idonotsaythatthesehorriblestoriesmaynothaveauseofsomekind；butthereisadangerthatthenervesofourguardiansmayberenderedtooexcitableandeffeminatebythem。 Thereisarealdanger，hesaid。 Thenwemusthavenomoreofthem。 True。 Anotherandanoblerstrainmustbecomposedandsungbyus。 Clearly。 Andshallweproceedtogetridoftheweepingsandwailingsoffamousmen？ Theywillgowiththerest。 Butshallweberightingettingridofthem？Reflect：ourprincipleisthatthegoodmanwillnotconsiderdeathterribletoanyothergoodmanwhoishiscomrade。 Yes；thatisourprinciple。 Andthereforehewillnotsorrowforhisdepartedfriendasthoughhehadsufferedanythingterrible？ Hewillnot。 Suchanone，aswefurthermaintain，issufficientforhimselfandhisownhappiness，andthereforeisleastinneedofothermen。 True，hesaid。 Andforthisreasonthelossofasonorbrother，orthedeprivationoffortune，istohimofallmenleastterrible。 Assuredly。 Andthereforehewillbeleastlikelytolament，andwillbearwiththegreatestequanimityanymisfortuneofthissortwhichmaybefallhim。 Yes，hewillfeelsuchamisfortunefarlessthananother。 Thenweshallberightingettingridofthelamentationsoffamousmen，andmakingthemovertowomen（andnoteventowomenwhoaregoodforanything），ortomenofabasersort，thatthosewhoarebeingeducatedbyustobethedefendersoftheircountrymayscorntodothelike。 Thatwillbeveryright。 ThenwewilloncemoreentreatHomerandtheotherpoetsnottodepictAchilles，whoisthesonofagoddess，firstlyingonhisside，thenonhisback，andthenonhisface；thenstartingupandsailinginafrenzyalongtheshoresofthebarrensea；nowtakingthesootyashesinbothhishandsandpouringthemoverhishead，orweepingandwailinginthevariousmodeswhichHomerhasdelineated。NorshouldhedescribePriamthekinsmanofthegodsasprayingandbeseeching，Rollinginthedirt，callingeachmanloudlybyhisname。 Stillmoreearnestlywillwebegofhimatalleventsnottointroducethegodslamentingandsaying，Alas！mymisery！Alas！thatIboretheharvesttomysorrow。 Butifhemustintroducethegods，atanyratelethimnotdaresocompletelytomisrepresentthegreatestofthegods，astomakehimsay—— Oheavens！withmyeyesverilyIbeholdadearfriendofminechasedroundandroundthecity，andmyheartissorrowful。 Oragain：—— WoeismethatIamfatedtohaveSarpedon，dearestofmentome，subduedatthehandsofPatroclusthesonofMenoetius。 Forif，mysweetAdeimantus，ouryouthseriouslylistentosuchunworthyrepresentationsofthegods，insteadoflaughingatthemastheyought，hardlywillanyofthemdeemthathehimself，beingbutaman，canbedishonouredbysimilaractions；neitherwillherebukeanyinclinationwhichmayariseinhismindtosayanddothelike。 Andinsteadofhavinganyshameorself—control，hewillbealwayswhiningandlamentingonslightoccasions。 Yes，hesaid，thatismosttrue。 Yes，Ireplied；butthatsurelyiswhatoughtnottobe，astheargumenthasjustprovedtous；andbythatproofwemustabideuntilitisdisprovedbyabetter。 Itoughtnottobe。 Neitheroughtourguardianstobegiventolaughter。Forafitoflaughterwhichhasbeenindulgedtoexcessalmostalwaysproducesaviolentreaction。 SoIbelieve。 Thenpersonsofworth，evenifonlymortalmen，mustnotberepresentedasovercomebylaughter，andstilllessmustsucharepresentationofthegodsbeallowed。 Stilllessofthegods，asyousay，hereplied。 ThenweshallnotsuffersuchanexpressiontobeusedaboutthegodsasthatofHomerwhenhedescribeshowInextinguishablelaughteraroseamongtheblessedgods，whentheysawHephaestusbustlingaboutthemansion。 Onyourviews，wemustnotadmitthem。 Onmyviews，ifyouliketofatherthemonme；thatwemustnotadmitthemiscertain。 Again，truthshouldbehighlyvalued；if，asweweresaying，alieisuselesstothegods，andusefulonlyasamedicinetomen，thentheuseofsuchmedicinesshouldberestrictedtophysicians；privateindividualshavenobusinesswiththem。 Clearlynot，hesaid。 Thenifanyoneatallistohavetheprivilegeoflying，therulersoftheStateshouldbethepersons；andthey，intheirdealingseitherwithenemiesorwiththeirowncitizens，maybeallowedtolieforthepublicgood。Butnobodyelseshouldmeddlewithanythingofthekind；andalthoughtherulershavethisprivilege，foraprivatemantolietotheminreturnistobedeemedamoreheinousfaultthanforthepatientorthepupilofagymnasiumnottospeakthetruthabouthisownbodilyillnessestothephysicianortothetrainer，orforasailornottotellthecaptainwhatishappeningabouttheshipandtherestofthecrew，andhowthingsaregoingwithhimselforhisfellowsailors。 Mosttrue，hesaid。 If，then，therulercatchesanybodybesidehimselflyingintheState，Anyofthecraftsmen，whetherhepriestorphysicianorcarpenter。 hewillpunishhimforintroducingapracticewhichisequallysubversiveanddestructiveofshiporState。 Mostcertainly，hesaid，ifourideaoftheStateisevercarriedout。 Inthenextplaceouryouthmustbetemperate？ Certainly。 Arenotthechiefelementsoftemperance，speakinggenerally，obediencetocommandersandself—controlinsensualpleasures？ True。 ThenweshallapprovesuchlanguageasthatofDiomedeinHomer，Friend，sitstillandobeymyword，andtheverseswhichfollow，TheGreeksmarchedbreathingprowess，……insilentaweoftheirleaders，andothersentimentsofthesamekind。 Weshall。 Whatofthisline，Oheavywithwine，whohasttheeyesofadogandtheheartofastag，andofthewordswhichfollow？Wouldyousaythatthese，oranysimilarimpertinenceswhichprivateindividualsaresupposedtoaddresstotheirrulers，whetherinverseorprose，arewellorillspoken？ Theyareillspoken。 Theymayverypossiblyaffordsomeamusement，buttheydonotconducetotemperance。Andthereforetheyarelikelytodoharmtoouryoungmen——youwouldagreewithmethere？ Yes。 Andthen，again，tomakethewisestofmensaythatnothinginhisopinionismoregloriousthanWhenthetablesarefullofbreadandmeat，andthecup—bearercarriesroundwinewhichhedrawsfromthebowlandpoursintothecups，isitfitorconducivetotemperanceforayoungmantohearsuchwords？OrtheverseThesaddestoffatesistodieandmeetdestinyfromhunger？ WhatwouldyousayagaintothetaleofZeus，who，whileothergodsandmenwereasleepandhetheonlypersonawake，laydevisingplans，butforgotthemallinamomentthroughhislust，andwassocompletelyovercomeatthesightofHerethathewouldnotevengointothehut，butwantedtoliewithherontheground，declaringthathehadneverbeeninsuchastateofrapturebefore，evenwhentheyfirstmetoneanotherWithouttheknowledgeoftheirparents； orthatothertaleofhowHephaestus，becauseofsimilargoingson，castachainaroundAresandAphrodite？ Indeed，hesaid，Iamstronglyofopinionthattheyoughtnottohearthatsortofthing。 Butanydeedsofendurancewhicharedoneortoldbyfamousmen，thesetheyoughttoseeandhear；as，forexample，whatissaidintheverses，Hesmotehisbreast，andthusreproachedhisheart，Endure，myheart；farworsehastthouendured！ Certainly，hesaid。 Inthenextplace，wemustnotletthembereceiversofgiftsorloversofmoney。 Certainlynot。 NeithermustwesingtothemofGiftspersuadinggods，andpersuadingreverendkings。 NeitherisPhoenix，thetutorofAchilles，tobeapprovedordeemedtohavegivenhispupilgoodcounselwhenhetoldhimthatheshouldtakethegiftsoftheGreeksandassistthem；butthatwithoutagiftheshouldnotlayasidehisanger。NeitherwillwebelieveoracknowledgeAchilleshimselftohavebeensuchaloverofmoneythathetookAgamemnon’sorthatwhenhehadreceivedpaymentherestoredthedeadbodyofHector，butthatwithoutpaymenthewasunwillingtodoso。 Undoubtedly，hesaid，thesearenotsentimentswhichcanbeapproved。 LovingHomerasIdo，IhardlyliketosaythatinattributingthesefeelingstoAchilles，orinbelievingthattheyaretrulytohim，heisguiltyofdownrightimpiety。AslittlecanIbelievethenarrativeofhisinsolencetoApollo，wherehesays，Thouhastwrongedme，Ofar—darter，mostabominableofdeities。 VerilyIwouldheevenwiththee，ifIhadonlythepower，orhisinsubordinationtotheriver—god，onwhosedivinityheisreadytolayhands；orhisofferingtothedeadPatroclusofhisownhair，whichhadbeenpreviouslydedicatedtotheotherriver—godSpercheius，andthatheactuallyperformedthisvow；orthathedraggedHectorroundthetombofPatroclus，andslaughteredthecaptivesatthepyre； ofallthisIcannotbelievethathewasguilty，anymorethanIcanallowourcitizenstobelievethathe，thewiseCheiron’spupil，thesonofagoddessandofPeleuswhowasthegentlestofmenandthirdindescentfromZeus，wassodisorderedinhiswitsastobeatonetimetheslaveoftwoseeminglyinconsistentpassions，meanness，notuntaintedbyavarice，combinedwithoverweeningcontemptofgodsandmen。 Youarequiteright，hereplied。 Andletusequallyrefusetobelieve，orallowtoberepeated，thetaleofTheseussonofPoseidon，orofPeirithoussonofZeus，goingforthastheydidtoperpetrateahorridrape；orofanyotherheroorsonofagoddaringtodosuchimpiousanddreadfulthingsastheyfalselyascribetotheminourday：andletusfurthercompelthepoetstodeclareeitherthattheseactswerenotdonebythem，orthattheywerenotthesonsofgods；——bothinthesamebreaththeyshallnotbepermittedtoaffirm。Wewillnothavethemtryingtopersuadeouryouththatthegodsaretheauthorsofevil，andthatheroesarenobetterthanmen—sentimentswhich，asweweresaying，areneitherpiousnortrue，forwehavealreadyprovedthatevilcannotcomefromthegods。 Assuredlynot。 Andfurthertheyarelikelytohaveabadeffectonthosewhohearthem；foreverybodywillbegintoexcusehisownviceswhenheisconvincedthatsimilarwickednessesarealwaysbeingperpetratedby—— Thekindredofthegods，therelativesofZeus，whoseancestralaltar，theattarofZeus，isaloftinaironthepeakofIda，andwhohavethebloodofdeitiesyetflowingintheirveins。 Andthereforeletusputanendtosuchtales，lesttheyengenderlaxityofmoralsamongtheyoung。 Byallmeans，hereplied。 Butnowthatwearedeterminingwhatclassesofsubjectsareorarenottobespokenof，letusseewhetheranyhavebeenomittedbyus。Themannerinwhichgodsanddemigodsandheroesandtheworldbelowshouldbetreatedhasbeenalreadylaiddown。 Verytrue。 Andwhatshallwesayaboutmen？Thatisclearlytheremainingportionofoursubject。 Clearlyso。 Butwearenotinaconditiontoanswerthisquestionatpresent，myfriend。 Whynot？ Because，ifIamnotmistaken，weshallhavetosaythataboutmenpoetsandstory—tellersareguiltyofmakingthegravestmisstatementswhentheytellusthatwickedmenareoftenhappy，andthegoodmiserable；andthatinjusticeisprofitablewhenundetected，butthatjusticeisaman’sownlossandanother’sgain——thesethingsweshallforbidthemtoutter，andcommandthemtosingandsaytheopposite。 Tobesureweshall，hereplied。 ButifyouadmitthatIamrightinthis，thenIshallmaintainthatyouhaveimpliedtheprincipleforwhichwehavebeenallalongcontending。 Igrantthetruthofyourinference。 Thatsuchthingsareorarenottobesaidaboutmenisaquestionwhichwecannotdetermineuntilwehavediscoveredwhatjusticeis，andhownaturallyadvantageoustothepossessor，whetherheseemstobejustornot。 Mosttrue，hesaid。 Enoughofthesubjectsofpoetry：letusnowspeakofthestyle；andwhenthishasbeenconsidered，bothmatterandmannerwillhavebeencompletelytreated。 Idonotunderstandwhatyoumean，saidAdeimantus。 ThenImustmakeyouunderstand；andperhapsImaybemoreintelligibleifIputthematterinthisway。Youareaware，I suppose，thatallmythologyandpoetryisanarrationofevents，eitherpast，present，ortocome？ Certainly，hereplied。