第4章

Butistheartofmedicineoranyotherartfaultyordeficientinanyqualityinthesamewaythattheeyemaybedeficientinsightortheearfailofhearing，andthereforerequiresanotherarttoprovidefortheinterestsofseeingandhearing——hasartinitself，I say，anysimilarliabilitytofaultordefect，anddoeseveryartrequireanothersupplementaryarttoprovideforitsinterests，andthatanotherandanotherwithoutend？Orhavetheartstolookonlyaftertheirowninterests？Orhavetheynoneedeitherofthemselvesorofanother？——havingnofaultsordefects，theyhavenoneedtocorrectthem，eitherbytheexerciseoftheirownartorofanyother； theyhaveonlytoconsidertheinterestoftheirsubject—matter。Foreveryartremainspureandfaultlesswhileremainingtrue——thatistosay，whileperfectandunimpaired。Takethewordsinyourprecisesense，andtellmewhetherIamnotright。\" Yes，clearly。 Thenmedicinedoesnotconsidertheinterestofmedicine，buttheinterestofthebody？ True，hesaid。 Nordoestheartofhorsemanshipconsidertheinterestsoftheartofhorsemanship，buttheinterestsofthehorse；neitherdoanyotherartscareforthemselves，fortheyhavenoneeds；theycareonlyforthatwhichisthesubjectoftheirart？ True，hesaid。 Butsurely，Thrasymachus，theartsarethesuperiorsandrulersoftheirownsubjects？ Tothisheassentedwithagooddealofreluctance。 Then，Isaid，noscienceorartconsidersorenjoinstheinterestofthestrongerorsuperior，butonlytheinterestofthesubjectandweaker？ Hemadeanattempttocontestthispropositionalso，butfinallyacquiesced。 Then，Icontinued，nophysician，insofarasheisaphysician，considershisowngoodinwhatheprescribes，butthegoodofhispatient；forthetruephysicianisalsoarulerhavingthehumanbodyasasubject，andisnotameremoney—maker；thathasbeenadmitted？ Yes。 Andthepilotlikewise，inthestrictsenseoftheterm，isarulerofsailorsandnotameresailor？ Thathasbeenadmitted。 Andsuchapilotandrulerwillprovideandprescribefortheinterestofthesailorwhoisunderhim，andnotforhisownortheruler’sinterest？ Hegaveareluctant’Yes。’ Then，Isaid，Thrasymachus，thereisnooneinanyrulewho，insofarasheisaruler，considersorenjoinswhatisforhisowninterest，butalwayswhatisfortheinterestofhissubjectorsuitabletohisart；tothathelooks，andthataloneheconsidersineverythingwhichhesaysanddoes。 Whenwehadgottothispointintheargument，andeveryonesawthatthedefinitionofjusticehadbeencompletelyupset，Thrasymachus，insteadofreplyingtome，said：Tellme，Socrates，haveyougotanurse？ Whydoyouasksuchaquestion，Isaid，whenyououghtrathertobeanswering？ Becausesheleavesyoutosnivel，andneverwipesyournose：shehasnoteventaughtyoutoknowtheshepherdfromthesheep。 Whatmakesyousaythat？Ireplied。 Becauseyoufancythattheshepherdorneatherdfattensoftendsthesheeporoxenwithaviewtotheirowngoodandnottothegoodofhimselforhismaster；andyoufurtherimaginethattherulersofstates，iftheyaretruerulers，neverthinkoftheirsubjectsassheep，andthattheyarenotstudyingtheirownadvantagedayandnight。Oh，no；andsoentirelyastrayareyouinyourideasaboutthejustandunjustasnoteventoknowthatjusticeandthejustareinrealityanother’sgood；thatistosay，theinterestoftherulerandstronger，andthelossofthesubjectandservant；andinjusticetheopposite；fortheunjustislordoverthetrulysimpleandjust：heisthestronger，andhissubjectsdowhatisforhisinterest，andministertohishappiness，whichisveryfarfrombeingtheirown。Considerfurther，mostfoolishSocrates，thatthejustisalwaysaloserincomparisonwiththeunjust。Firstofall，inprivatecontracts：wherevertheunjustisthepartnerofthejustyouwillfindthat，whenthepartnershipisdissolved，theunjustmanhasalwaysmoreandthejustless。Secondly，intheirdealingswiththeState：whenthereisanincometax，thejustmanwillpaymoreandtheunjustlessonthesameamountofincome；andwhenthereisanythingtobereceivedtheonegainsnothingandtheothermuch。Observealsowhathappenswhentheytakeanoffice；thereisthejustmanneglectinghisaffairsandperhapssufferingotherlosses，andgettingnothingoutofthepublic，becauseheisjust；moreoverheishatedbyhisfriendsandacquaintanceforrefusingtoservetheminunlawfulways。Butallthisisreversedinthecaseoftheunjustman。 Iamspeaking，asbefore，ofinjusticeonalargescaleinwhichtheadvantageoftheunjustismoreapparent；andmymeaningwillbemostclearlyseenifweturntothathighestformofinjusticeinwhichthecriminalisthehappiestofmen，andthesufferersorthosewhorefusetodoinjusticearethemostmiserable——thatistosaytyranny，whichbyfraudandforcetakesawaythepropertyofothers，notlittlebylittlebutwholesale；comprehendinginone，thingssacredaswellasprofane，privateandpublic；forwhichactsofwrong，ifheweredetectedperpetratinganyoneofthemsingly，hewouldbepunishedandincurgreatdisgrace——theywhodosuchwronginparticularcasesarecalledrobbersoftemples，andman—stealersandburglarsandswindlersandthieves。Butwhenamanbesidestakingawaythemoneyofthecitizenshasmadeslavesofthem，then，insteadofthesenamesofreproach，heistermedhappyandblessed，notonlybythecitizensbutbyallwhohearofhishavingachievedtheconsummationofinjustice。Formankindcensureinjustice，fearingthattheymaybethevictimsofitandnotbecausetheyshrinkfromcommittingit。Andthus，asIhaveshown，Socrates，injustice，whenonasufficientscale，hasmorestrengthandfreedomandmasterythanjustice；and，asIsaidatfirst，justiceistheinterestofthestronger，whereasinjusticeisaman’sownprofitandinterest。 Thrasymachus，whenhehadthusspoken，having，likeabathman，delugedourearswithhiswords，hadamindtogoaway。Butthecompanywouldnotlethim；theyinsistedthatheshouldremainanddefendhisposition；andImyselfaddedmyownhumblerequestthathewouldnotleaveus。Thrasymachus，Isaidtohim，excellentman，howsuggestiveareyourremarks！Andareyougoingtorunawaybeforeyouhavefairlytaughtorlearnedwhethertheyaretrueornot？Istheattempttodeterminethewayofman’slifesosmallamatterinyoureyes——todeterminehowlifemaybepassedbyeachoneofustothegreatestadvantage？ AnddoIdifferfromyou，hesaid，astotheimportanceoftheenquiry？ Youappearrather，Ireplied，tohavenocareorthoughtaboutus，Thrasymachus——whetherwelivebetterorworsefromnotknowingwhatyousayyouknow，istoyouamatterofindifference。Prithee，friend，donotkeepyourknowledgetoyourself；wearealargeparty；andanybenefitwhichyouconferuponuswillbeamplyrewarded。FormyownpartIopenlydeclarethatIamnotconvinced，andthatIdonotbelieveinjusticetobemoregainfulthanjustice，evenifuncontrolledandallowedtohavefreeplay。For，grantingthattheremaybeanunjustmanwhoisabletocommitinjusticeeitherbyfraudorforce，stillthisdoesnotconvincemeofthesuperioradvantageofinjustice，andtheremaybeotherswhoareinthesamepredicamentwithmyself。Perhapswemaybewrong；ifso，youinyourwisdomshouldconvinceusthatwearemistakeninpreferringjusticetoinjustice。 AndhowamItoconvinceyou，hesaid，ifyouarenotalreadyconvincedbywhatIhavejustsaid；whatmorecanIdoforyou？ Wouldyouhavemeputtheproofbodilyintoyoursouls？ Heavenforbid！Isaid；Iwouldonlyaskyoutobeconsistent；or，ifyouchange，changeopenlyandlettherebenodeception。ForImustremark，Thrasymachus，ifyouwillrecallwhatwaspreviouslysaid，thatalthoughyoubeganbydefiningthetruephysicianinanexactsense，youdidnotobservealikeexactnesswhenspeakingoftheshepherd；youthoughtthattheshepherdasashepherdtendsthesheepnotwithaviewtotheirowngood，butlikeameredinerorbanqueterwithaviewtothepleasuresofthetable；or，again，asatraderforsaleinthemarket，andnotasashepherd。Yetsurelytheartoftheshepherdisconcernedonlywiththegoodofhissubjects； hehasonlytoprovidethebestforthem，sincetheperfectionoftheartisalreadyensuredwheneveralltherequirementsofitaresatisfied。AndthatwaswhatIwassayingjustnowabouttheruler。 Iconceivedthattheartoftheruler，consideredasruler，whetherinastateorinprivatelife，couldonlyregardthegoodofhisflockorsubjects；whereasyouseemtothinkthattherulersinstates，thatistosay，thetruerulers，likebeinginauthority。 Think！Nay，Iamsureofit。 Thenwhyinthecaseoflesserofficesdomennevertakethemwillinglywithoutpayment，unlessundertheideathattheygovernfortheadvantagenotofthemselvesbutofothers？Letmeaskyouaquestion：Arenottheseveralartsdifferent，byreasonoftheireachhavingaseparatefunction？And，mydearillustriousfriend，dosaywhatyouthink，thatwemaymakealittleprogress。 Yes，thatisthedifference，hereplied。 Andeachartgivesusaparticulargoodandnotmerelyageneralone——medicine，forexample，givesushealth；navigation，safetyatsea，andsoon？ Yes，hesaid。 Andtheartofpaymenthasthespecialfunctionofgivingpay：butwedonotconfusethiswithotherarts，anymorethantheartofthepilotistobeconfusedwiththeartofmedicine，becausethehealthofthepilotmaybeimprovedbyaseavoyage。Youwouldnotbeinclinedtosay，wouldyou，thatnavigationistheartofmedicine，atleastifwearetoadoptyourexactuseoflanguage？ Certainlynot。 Orbecauseamanisingoodhealthwhenhereceivespayyouwouldnotsaythattheartofpaymentismedicine？ Ishouldsaynot。 Norwouldyousaythatmedicineistheartofreceivingpaybecauseamantakesfeeswhenheisengagedinhealing？ Certainlynot。 Andwehaveadmitted，Isaid，thatthegoodofeachartisspeciallyconfinedtotheart？ Yes。 Then，iftherebeanygoodwhichallartistshaveincommon，thatistobeattributedtosomethingofwhichtheyallhavethecommonuse？ True，hereplied。 Andwhentheartistisbenefitedbyreceivingpaytheadvantageisgainedbyanadditionaluseoftheartofpay，whichisnottheartprofessedbyhim？ Hegaveareluctantassenttothis。 Thenthepayisnotderivedbytheseveralartistsfromtheirrespectivearts。Butthetruthis，thatwhiletheartofmedicinegiveshealth，andtheartofthebuilderbuildsahouse，anotherartattendsthemwhichistheartofpay。Thevariousartsmaybedoingtheirownbusinessandbenefitingthatoverwhichtheypreside，butwouldtheartistreceiveanybenefitfromhisartunlesshewerepaidaswell？ Isupposenot。 Butdoeshethereforeconfernobenefitwhenheworksfornothing？ Certainly，heconfersabenefit。 Thennow，Thrasymachus，thereisnolongeranydoubtthatneitherartsnorgovernmentsprovidefortheirowninterests；but，aswewerebeforesaying，theyruleandprovidefortheinterestsoftheirsubjectswhoaretheweakerandnotthestronger——totheirgoodtheyattendandnottothegoodofthesuperior。 Andthisisthereason，mydearThrasymachus，why，asIwasjustnowsaying，nooneiswillingtogovern；becausenoonelikestotakeinhandthereformationofevilswhicharenothisconcernwithoutremuneration。For，intheexecutionofhiswork，andingivinghisorderstoanother，thetrueartistdoesnotregardhisowninterest，butalwaysthatofhissubjects；andthereforeinorderthatrulersmaybewillingtorule，theymustbepaidinoneofthreemodesofpayment：money，orhonour，orapenaltyforrefusing。 SOCRATES—GLAUCON Whatdoyoumean，Socrates？saidGlaucon。Thefirsttwomodesofpaymentareintelligibleenough，butwhatthepenaltyisIdonotunderstand，orhowapenaltycanbeapayment。 Youmeanthatyoudonotunderstandthenatureofthispaymentwhichtothebestmenisthegreatinducementtorule？Ofcourseyouknowthatambitionandavariceareheldtobe，asindeedtheyare，adisgrace？ Verytrue。 Andforthisreason，Isaid，moneyandhonourhavenoattractionforthem；goodmendonotwishtobeopenlydemandingpaymentforgoverningandsotogetthenameofhirelings，norbysecretlyhelpingthemselvesoutofthepublicrevenuestogetthenameofthieves。 Andnotbeingambitioustheydonotcareabouthonour。Whereforenecessitymustbelaiduponthem，andtheymustbeinducedtoservefromthefearofpunishment。Andthis，asIimagine，isthereasonwhytheforwardnesstotakeoffice，insteadofwaitingtobecompelled，hasbeendeemeddishonourable。Nowtheworstpartofthepunishmentisthathewhorefusestoruleisliabletoberuledbyonewhoisworsethanhimself。Andthefearofthis，asIconceive，inducesthegoodtotakeoffice，notbecausetheywould，butbecausetheycannothelp——notundertheideathattheyaregoingtohaveanybenefitorenjoymentthemselves，butasanecessity，andbecausetheyarenotabletocommitthetaskofrulingtoanyonewhoisbetterthanthemselves，orindeedasgood。Forthereisreasontothinkthatifacitywerecomposedentirelyofgoodmen，thentoavoidofficewouldbeasmuchanobjectofcontentionastoobtainofficeisatpresent；thenweshouldhaveplainproofthatthetruerulerisnotmeantbynaturetoregardhisowninterest，butthatofhissubjects；andeveryonewhoknewthiswouldchooserathertoreceiveabenefitfromanotherthantohavethetroubleofconferringone。SofaramIfromagreeingwithThrasymachusthatjusticeistheinterestofthestronger。Thislatterquestionneednotbefurtherdiscussedatpresent；butwhenThrasymachussaysthatthelifeoftheunjustismoreadvantageousthanthatofthejust，hisnewstatementappearstometobeofafarmoreseriouscharacter。Whichofushasspokentruly？Andwhichsortoflife，Glaucon，doyouprefer？ Iformypartdeemthelifeofthejusttobethemoreadvantageous，heanswered。 DidyouhearalltheadvantagesoftheunjustwhichThrasymachuswasrehearsing？ Yes，Iheardhim，hereplied，buthehasnotconvincedme。 Thenshallwetrytofindsomewayofconvincinghim，ifwecan，thatheissayingwhatisnottrue？ Mostcertainly，hereplied。 If，Isaid，hemakesasetspeechandwemakeanotherrecountingalltheadvantagesofbeingjust，andheanswersandwerejoin，theremustbeanumberingandmeasuringofthegoodswhichareclaimedoneitherside，andintheendweshallwantjudgestodecide；butifweproceedinourenquiryaswelatelydid，bymakingadmissionstooneanother，weshallunitetheofficesofjudgeandadvocateinourownpersons。 Verygood，hesaid。 AndwhichmethoddoIunderstandyoutoprefer？Isaid。 Thatwhichyoupropose。 Well，then，Thrasymachus，Isaid，supposeyoubeginatthebeginningandanswerme。Yousaythatperfectinjusticeismoregainfulthanperfectjustice？ SOCRATES—GLAUCON—THRASYMACHUS Yes，thatiswhatIsay，andIhavegivenyoumyreasons。 Andwhatisyourviewaboutthem？Wouldyoucalloneofthemvirtueandtheothervice？ Certainly。 Isupposethatyouwouldcalljusticevirtueandinjusticevice？ Whatacharmingnotion！Solikelytoo，seeingthatIaffirminjusticetobeprofitableandjusticenot。 Whatelsethenwouldyousay？ Theopposite，hereplied。 Andwouldyoucalljusticevice？ No，Iwouldrathersaysublimesimplicity。 Thenwouldyoucallinjusticemalignity？ No；Iwouldrathersaydiscretion。 Anddotheunjustappeartoyoutobewiseandgood？ Yes，hesaid；atanyratethoseofthemwhoareabletobeperfectlyunjust，andwhohavethepowerofsubduingstatesandnations；butperhapsyouimaginemetobetalkingofcutpurses。 Eventhisprofessionifundetectedhasadvantages，thoughtheyarenottobecomparedwiththoseofwhichIwasjustnowspeaking。 IdonotthinkthatImisapprehendyourmeaning，Thrasymachus，I replied；butstillIcannothearwithoutamazementthatyouclassinjusticewithwisdomandvirtue，andjusticewiththeopposite。 CertainlyIdosoclassthem。 Now，Isaid，youareonmoresubstantialandalmostunanswerableground；foriftheinjusticewhichyouweremaintainingtobeprofitablehadbeenadmittedbyyouasbyotherstobeviceanddeformity，ananswermighthavebeengiventoyouonreceivedprinciples；butnowIperceivethatyouwillcallinjusticehonourableandstrong，andtotheunjustyouwillattributeallthequalitieswhichwereattributedbyusbeforetothejust，seeingthatyoudonothesitatetorankinjusticewithwisdomandvirtue。 Youhaveguessedmostinfallibly，hereplied。 ThenIcertainlyoughtnottoshrinkfromgoingthroughwiththeargumentsolongasIhavereasontothinkthatyou，Thrasymachus，arespeakingyourrealmind；forIdobelievethatyouarenowinearnestandarenotamusingyourselfatourexpense。 Imaybeinearnestornot，butwhatisthattoyou？——torefutetheargumentisyourbusiness。 Verytrue，Isaid；thatiswhatIhavetodo：Butwillyoubesogoodasansweryetonemorequestion？Doesthejustmantrytogainanyadvantageoverthejust？ Farotherwise；ifhedidwouldnotbethesimple，amusingcreaturewhichheis。 Andwouldhetrytogobeyondjustaction？ Hewouldnot。 Andhowwouldheregardtheattempttogainanadvantageovertheunjust；wouldthatbeconsideredbyhimasjustorunjust？ Hewouldthinkitjust，andwouldtrytogaintheadvantage；buthewouldnotbeable。 Whetherhewouldorwouldnotbeable，Isaid，isnottothepoint。Myquestionisonlywhetherthejustman，whilerefusingtohavemorethananotherjustman，wouldwishandclaimtohavemorethantheunjust？ Yes，hewould。 Andwhatoftheunjust——doesheclaimtohavemorethanthejustmanandtodomorethanisjustOfcourse，hesaid，forheclaimstohavemorethanallmen。 Andtheunjustmanwillstriveandstruggletoobtainmorethantheunjustmanoraction，inorderthathemayhavemorethanall？ True。 Wemayputthematterthus，Isaid——thejustdoesnotdesiremorethanhislikebutmorethanhisunlike，whereastheunjustdesiresmorethanbothhislikeandhisunlike？ Nothing，hesaid，canbebetterthanthatstatement。 Andtheunjustisgoodandwise，andthejustisneither？ Goodagain，hesaid。 Andisnottheunjustlikethewiseandgoodandthejustunlikethem？ Ofcourse，hesaid，hewhoisofacertainnature，islikethosewhoareofacertainnature；hewhoisnot，not。 Eachofthem，Isaid，issuchashislikeis？ Certainly，hereplied。 Verygood，Thrasymachus，Isaid；andnowtotakethecaseofthearts：youwouldadmitthatonemanisamusicianandanothernotamusician？ Yes。 Andwhichiswiseandwhichisfoolish？ Clearlythemusicianiswise，andhewhoisnotamusicianisfoolish。 Andheisgoodinasfarasheiswise，andbadinasfarasheisfoolish？ Yes。 Andyouwouldsaythesamesortofthingofthephysician？ Yes。 Anddoyouthink，myexcellentfriend，thatamusicianwhenheadjuststhelyrewoulddesireorclaimtoexceedorgobeyondamusicianinthetighteningandlooseningthestrings？ Idonotthinkthathewould。 Buthewouldclaimtoexceedthenon—musician？ Ofcourse。 Andwhatwouldyousayofthephysician？Inprescribingmeatsanddrinkswouldhewishtogobeyondanotherphysicianorbeyondthepracticeofmedicine？ Hewouldnot。 Buthewouldwishtogobeyondthenon—physician？ Yes。 Andaboutknowledgeandignoranceingeneral；seewhetheryouthinkthatanymanwhohasknowledgeeverwouldwishtohavethechoiceofsayingordoingmorethananothermanwhohasknowledge。 Wouldhenotrathersayordothesameashislikeinthesamecase？ That，Isuppose，canhardlybedenied。 Andwhatoftheignorant？wouldhenotdesiretohavemorethaneithertheknowingortheignorant？ Idaresay。 Andtheknowingiswise？ Yes。 Andthewiseisgood？ True。 Thenthewiseandgoodwillnotdesiretogainmorethanhislike，butmorethanhisunlikeandopposite？ Isupposeso。 Whereasthebadandignorantwilldesiretogainmorethanboth？ Yes。 Butdidwenotsay，Thrasymachus，thattheunjustgoesbeyondbothhislikeandunlike？Werenottheseyourwords？Theywere。 Theywere。 Andyoualsosaidthatthelustwillnotgobeyondhislikebuthisunlike？ Yes。 Thenthejustislikethewiseandgood，andtheunjustliketheevilandignorant？ Thatistheinference。 Andeachofthemissuchashislikeis？ Thatwasadmitted。 Thenthejusthasturnedouttobewiseandgoodandtheunjustevilandignorant。 Thrasymachusmadealltheseadmissions，notfluently，asIrepeatthem，butwithextremereluctance；itwasahotsummer’sday，andtheperspirationpouredfromhimintorrents；andthenIsawwhatI hadneverseenbefore，Thrasymachusblushing。Aswewerenowagreedthatjusticewasvirtueandwisdom，andinjusticeviceandignorance，Iproceededtoanotherpoint： Well，Isaid，Thrasymachus，thatmatterisnowsettled；butwerewenotalsosayingthatinjusticehadstrength；doyouremember？ Yes，Iremember，hesaid，butdonotsupposethatIapproveofwhatyouaresayingorhavenoanswer；ifhoweverIweretoanswer，youwouldbequitecertaintoaccusemeofharanguing；thereforeeitherpermitmetohavemysayout，orifyouwouldratherask，doso，andIwillanswer’Verygood，’astheysaytostory—tellingoldwomen，andwillnod’Yes’and’No。’ Certainlynot，Isaid，ifcontrarytoyourrealopinion。 Yes，hesaid，Iwill，topleaseyou，sinceyouwillnotletmespeak。Whatelsewouldyouhave？