第3章

Theninwhatsortofpartnershipisthejustmanabetterpartnerthantheharp—player，asinplayingtheharptheharp—playeriscertainlyabetterpartnerthanthejustman？ Inamoneypartnership。 Yes，Polemarchus，butsurelynotintheuseofmoney；foryoudonotwantajustmantobeyourcounsellorthepurchaseorsaleofahorse； amanwhoisknowingabouthorseswouldbebetterforthat，wouldhenot？ Certainly。 Andwhenyouwanttobuyaship，theshipwrightorthepilotwouldbebetter？ True。 Thenwhatisthatjointuseofsilverorgoldinwhichthejustmanistobepreferred？ Whenyouwantadeposittobekeptsafely。 Youmeanwhenmoneyisnotwanted，butallowedtolie？ Precisely。 Thatistosay，justiceisusefulwhenmoneyisuseless？ Thatistheinference。 Andwhenyouwanttokeepapruning—hooksafe，thenjusticeisusefultotheindividualandtothestate；butwhenyouwanttouseit，thentheartofthevine—dresser？ Clearly。 Andwhenyouwanttokeepashieldoralyre，andnottousethem，youwouldsaythatjusticeisuseful；butwhenyouwanttousethem，thentheartofthesoldierorofthemusician？ Certainly。 Andsoofalltheotherthings；——justiceisusefulwhentheyareuseless，anduselesswhentheyareuseful？ Thatistheinference。 Thenjusticeisnotgoodformuch。Butletusconsiderthisfurtherpoint：Isnothewhocanbeststrikeablowinaboxingmatchorinanykindoffightingbestabletowardoffablow？ Certainly。 Andhewhoismostskilfulinpreventingorescapingfromadiseaseisbestabletocreateone？ True。 Andheisthebestguardofacampwhoisbestabletostealamarchupontheenemy？ Certainly。 Thenhewhoisagoodkeeperofanythingisalsoagoodthief？ That，Isuppose，istobeinferred。 Thenifthejustmanisgoodatkeepingmoney，heisgoodatstealingit。 Thatisimpliedintheargument。 Thenafterallthejustmanhasturnedouttobeathief。AndthisisalessonwhichIsuspectyoumusthavelearntoutofHomer；forhe，speakingofAutolycus，thematernalgrandfatherofOdysseus，whoisafavouriteofhis，affirmsthatHewasexcellentaboveallmenintheftandperjury。 Andso，youandHomerandSimonidesareagreedthatjusticeisanartoftheft；tobepractisedhowever’forthegoodoffriendsandfortheharmofenemies，’——thatwaswhatyouweresaying？ No，certainlynotthat，thoughIdonotnowknowwhatIdidsay；butIstillstandbythelatterwords。 Well，thereisanotherquestion：Byfriendsandenemiesdowemeanthosewhoaresoreally，oronlyinseeming？ Surely，hesaid，amanmaybeexpectedtolovethosewhomhethinksgood，andtohatethosewhomhethinksevil。 Yes，butdonotpersonsoftenerraboutgoodandevil：manywhoarenotgoodseemtobeso，andconversely？ Thatistrue。 Thentothemthegoodwillbeenemiesandtheevilwillbetheirfriends？True。 Andinthatcasetheywillberightindoinggoodtotheevilandeviltothegood？ Clearly。 Butthegoodarejustandwouldnotdoaninjustice？ True。 Thenaccordingtoyourargumentitisjusttoinjurethosewhodonowrong？ Nay，Socrates；thedoctrineisimmoral。 ThenIsupposethatweoughttodogoodtothejustandharmtotheunjust？ Ilikethatbetter。 Butseetheconsequence：——Manyamanwhoisignorantofhumannaturehasfriendswhoarebadfriends，andinthatcaseheoughttodoharmtothem；andhehasgoodenemieswhomheoughttobenefit； but，ifso，weshallbesayingtheveryoppositeofthatwhichweaffirmedtobethemeaningofSimonides。 Verytrue，hesaid：andIthinkthatwehadbettercorrectanerrorintowhichweseemtohavefallenintheuseofthewords’friend’and’enemy。’ Whatwastheerror，Polemarchus？Iasked。 Weassumedthatheisafriendwhoseemstobeorwhoisthoughtgood。 Andhowistheerrortobecorrected？ Weshouldrathersaythatheisafriendwhois，aswellasseems，good；andthathewhoseemsonly，andisnotgood，onlyseemstobeandisnotafriend；andofanenemythesamemaybesaid。 Youwouldarguethatthegoodareourfriendsandthebadourenemies？ Yes。 Andinsteadofsayingsimplyaswedidatfirst，thatitisjusttodogoodtoourfriendsandharmtoourenemies，weshouldfurthersay：Itisjusttodogoodtoourfriendswhentheyaregoodandharmtoourenemieswhentheyareevil？ Yes，thatappearstometobethetruth。 Butoughtthejusttoinjureanyoneatall？ Undoubtedlyheoughttoinjurethosewhoarebothwickedandhisenemies。 Whenhorsesareinjured，aretheyimprovedordeteriorated？ Thelatter。 Deteriorated，thatistosay，inthegoodqualitiesofhorses，notofdogs？ Yes，ofhorses。 Anddogsaredeterioratedinthegoodqualitiesofdogs，andnotofhorses？ Ofcourse。 Andwillnotmenwhoareinjuredbedeterioratedinthatwhichisthepropervirtueofman？ Certainly。 Andthathumanvirtueisjustice？ Tobesure。 Thenmenwhoareinjuredareofnecessitymadeunjust？ Thatistheresult。 Butcanthemusicianbyhisartmakemenunmusical？ Certainlynot。 Orthehorsemanbyhisartmakethembadhorsemen？ Impossible。 Andcanthejustbyjusticemakemenunjust，orspeakinggeneralcanthegoodbyvirtuemakethembad？ Assuredlynot。 Anymorethanheatcanproducecold？ Itcannot。 Ordroughtmoisture？ Clearlynot。 Norcanthegoodharmanyone？ Impossible。 Andthejustisthegood？ Certainly。 Thentoinjureafriendoranyoneelseisnottheactofajustman，butoftheopposite，whoistheunjust？ Ithinkthatwhatyousayisquitetrue，Socrates。 Thenifamansaysthatjusticeconsistsintherepaymentofdebts，andthatgoodisthedebtwhichamanowestohisfriends，andevilthedebtwhichheowestohisenemies，——tosaythisisnotwise；foritisnottrue，if，ashasbeenclearlyshown，theinjuringofanothercanbeinnocasejust。 Iagreewithyou，saidPolemarchus。 ThenyouandIarepreparedtotakeuparmsagainstanyonewhoattributessuchasayingtoSimonidesorBiasorPittacus，oranyotherwisemanorseer？ Iamquitereadytodobattleatyourside，hesaid。 ShallItellyouwhoseIbelievethesayingtobe？ Whose？ IbelievethatPerianderorPerdiccasorXerxesorIsmeniastheTheban，orsomeotherrichandmightyman，whohadagreatopinionofhisownpower，wasthefirsttosaythatjusticeis’doinggoodtoyourfriendsandharmtoyourenemies。’ Mosttrue，hesaid。 Yes，Isaid；butifthisdefinitionofjusticealsobreaksdown，whatothercanbeoffered？ SeveraltimesinthecourseofthediscussionThrasymachushadmadeanattempttogettheargumentintohisownhands，andhadbeenputdownbytherestofthecompany，whowantedtoheartheend。ButwhenPolemarchusandIhaddonespeakingandtherewasapause，hecouldnolongerholdhispeace；and，gatheringhimselfup，hecameatuslikeawildbeast，seekingtodevourus。Wewerequitepanic—strickenatthesightofhim。 SOCRATES—POLEMARCHUS—THRASYMACHUS Heroaredouttothewholecompany：Whatfolly。Socrates，hastakenpossessionofyouall？Andwhy，sillybillies，doyouknockundertooneanother？Isaythatifyouwantreallytoknowwhatjusticeis，youshouldnotonlyaskbutanswer，andyoushouldnotseekhonourtoyourselffromtherefutationofanopponent，buthaveyourownanswer；forthereismanyaonewhocanaskandcannotanswer。AndnowIwillnothaveyousaythatjusticeisdutyoradvantageorprofitorgainorinterest，forthissortofnonsensewillnotdoforme；Imusthaveclearnessandaccuracy。 Iwaspanic—strickenathiswords，andcouldnotlookathimwithouttrembling。IndeedIbelievethatifIhadnotfixedmyeyeuponhim，I shouldhavebeenstruckdumb：butwhenIsawhisfuryrising，Ilookedathimfirst，andwasthereforeabletoreplytohim。 Thrasymachus，Isaid，withaquiver，don’tbeharduponus。 PolemarchusandImayhavebeenguiltyofalittlemistakeintheargument，butIcanassureyouthattheerrorwasnotintentional。 Ifwewereseekingforapieceofgold，youwouldnotimaginethatwewere’knockingundertooneanother，’andsolosingourchanceoffindingit。Andwhy，whenweareseekingforjustice，athingmorepreciousthanmanypiecesofgold，doyousaythatweareweaklyyieldingtooneanotherandnotdoingourutmosttogetatthetruth？Nay，mygoodfriend，wearemostwillingandanxioustodoso，butthefactisthatwecannot。Andifso，youpeoplewhoknowallthingsshouldpityusandnotbeangrywithus。 HowcharacteristicofSocrates！hereplied，withabitterlaugh； ——that’syourironicalstyle！DidInotforesee——haveInotalreadytoldyou，thatwhateverhewasaskedhewouldrefusetoanswer，andtryironyoranyothershuffle，inorderthathemightavoidanswering？ Youareaphilosopher，Thrasymachus，Ireplied，andwellknowthatifyouaskapersonwhatnumbersmakeuptwelve，takingcaretoprohibithimwhomyouaskfromansweringtwicesix，orthreetimesfour，orsixtimestwo，orfourtimesthree，’forthissortofnonsensewillnotdoforme，’——thenobviously，thatisyourwayofputtingthequestion，noonecanansweryou。Butsupposethatheweretoretort，’Thrasymachus，whatdoyoumean？Ifoneofthesenumberswhichyouinterdictbethetrueanswertothequestion，amI falselytosaysomeothernumberwhichisnottherightone？——isthatyourmeaning？’—Howwouldyouanswerhim？ Justasifthetwocaseswereatallalike！hesaid。 Whyshouldtheynotbe？Ireplied；andeveniftheyarenot，butonlyappeartobesotothepersonwhoisasked，oughthenottosaywhathethinks，whetheryouandIforbidhimornot？ Ipresumethenthatyouaregoingtomakeoneoftheinterdictedanswers？ IdaresaythatImay，notwithstandingthedanger，ifuponreflectionIapproveofanyofthem。 ButwhatifIgiveyouanansweraboutjusticeotherandbetter，hesaid，thananyofthese？Whatdoyoudeservetohavedonetoyou？ Donetome！——asbecomestheignorant，Imustlearnfromthewise——thatiswhatIdeservetohavedonetome。 What，andnopayment！apleasantnotion！ IwillpaywhenIhavethemoney，Ireplied。 SOCRATES—THRASYMACHUS—GLAUCON Butyouhave，Socrates，saidGlaucon：andyou，Thrasymachus，needbeundernoanxietyaboutmoney，forwewillallmakeacontributionforSocrates。 Yes，hereplied，andthenSocrateswilldoashealwaysdoes——refusetoanswerhimself，buttakeandpulltopiecestheanswerofsomeoneelse。 Why，mygoodfriend，Isaid，howcananyoneanswerwhoknows，andsaysthatheknows，justnothing；andwho，evenifhehassomefaintnotionsofhisown，istoldbyamanofauthoritynottoutterthem？ Thenaturalthingis，thatthespeakershouldbesomeonelikeyourselfwhoprofessestoknowandcantellwhatheknows。Willyouthenkindlyanswer，fortheedificationofthecompanyandofmyself？ GlauconandtherestofthecompanyjoinedinmyrequestandThrasymachus，asanyonemightsee，wasinrealityeagertospeak；forhethoughtthathehadanexcellentanswer，andwoulddistinguishhimself。Butatfirsthetoinsistonmyanswering；atlengthheconsentedtobegin。Behold，hesaid，thewisdomofSocrates；herefusestoteachhimself，andgoesaboutlearningofothers，towhomheneverevensaysthankyou。 ThatIlearnofothers，Ireplied，isquitetrue；butthatIamungratefulIwhollydeny。MoneyIhavenone，andthereforeIpayinpraise，whichisallIhave：andhowreadyIamtopraiseanyonewhoappearstometospeakwellyouwillverysoonfindoutwhenyouanswer；forIexpectthatyouwillanswerwell。 Listen，then，hesaid；Iproclaimthatjusticeisnothingelsethantheinterestofthestronger。Andnowwhydoyounotme？Butofcourseyouwon’t。 Letmefirstunderstandyou，Ireplied。justice，asyousay，istheinterestofthestronger。What，Thrasymachus，isthemeaningofthis？YoucannotmeantosaythatbecausePolydamas，thepancratiast，isstrongerthanweare，andfindstheeatingofbeefconducivetohisbodilystrength，thattoeatbeefisthereforeequallyforourgoodwhoareweakerthanheis，andrightandjustforus？ That’sabominableofyou，Socrates；youtakethewordsinthesensewhichismostdamagingtotheargument。 Notatall，mygoodsir，Isaid；Iamtryingtounderstandthem；andIwishthatyouwouldbealittleclearer。 Well，hesaid，haveyouneverheardthatformsofgovernmentdiffer； therearetyrannies，andtherearedemocracies，andtherearearistocracies？ Yes，Iknow。 Andthegovernmentistherulingpowerineachstate？ Certainly。 Andthedifferentformsofgovernmentmakelawsdemocratical，aristocratical，tyrannical，withaviewtotheirseveralinterests； andtheselaws，whicharemadebythemfortheirowninterests，arethejusticewhichtheydelivertotheirsubjects，andhimwhotransgressesthemtheypunishasabreakerofthelaw，andunjust。AndthatiswhatImeanwhenIsaythatinallstatesthereisthesameprincipleofjustice，whichistheinterestofthegovernment；andasthegovernmentmustbesupposedtohavepower，theonlyreasonableconclusionis，thateverywherethereisoneprincipleofjustice，whichistheinterestofthestronger。 NowIunderstandyou，Isaid；andwhetheryouarerightornotI willtrytodiscover。Butletmeremark，thatindefiningjusticeyouhaveyourselfusedtheword’interest’whichyouforbademetouse。Itistrue，however，thatinyourdefinitionthewords’ofthestronger’areadded。 Asmalladdition，youmustallow，hesaid。 Greatorsmall，nevermindaboutthat：wemustfirstenquirewhetherwhatyouaresayingisthetruth。Nowwearebothagreedthatjusticeisinterestofsomesort，butyougoontosay’ofthestronger’；aboutthisadditionIamnotsosure，andmustthereforeconsiderfurther。 Proceed。 Iwill；andfirsttellme，Doyouadmitthatitisjustorsubjectstoobeytheirrulers？ Ido。 Butaretherulersofstatesabsolutelyinfallible，oraretheysometimesliabletoerr？ Tobesure，hereplied，theyareliabletoerr。 Theninmakingtheirlawstheymaysometimesmakethemrightly，andsometimesnot？ True。 Whentheymakethemrightly，theymakethemagreeablytotheirinterest；whentheyaremistaken，contrarytotheirinterest；youadmitthat？ Yes。 Andthelawswhichtheymakemustbeobeyedbytheirsubjects，——andthatiswhatyoucalljustice？ Doubtless。 Thenjustice，accordingtoyourargument，isnotonlyobediencetotheinterestofthestrongerbutthereverse？ Whatisthatyouaresaying？heasked。 Iamonlyrepeatingwhatyouaresaying，Ibelieve。Butletusconsider：Havewenotadmittedthattherulersmaybemistakenabouttheirowninterestinwhattheycommand，andalsothattoobeythemisjustice？Hasnotthatbeenadmitted？ Yes。 Thenyoumustalsohaveacknowledgedjusticenottobefortheinterestofthestronger，whentherulersunintentionallycommandthingstobedonewhicharetotheirowninjury。Forif，asyousay，justiceistheobediencewhichthesubjectrenderstotheircommands，inthatcase，Owisestofmen，isthereanyescapefromtheconclusionthattheweakerarecommandedtodo，notwhatisfortheinterest，butwhatisfortheinjuryofthestronger？ Nothingcanbeclearer，Socrates，saidPolemarchus。 SOCRATES—CLEITOPHON—POLEMARCHUS—THRASYMACHUS Yes，saidCleitophon，interposing，ifyouareallowedtobehiswitness。 Butthereisnoneedofanywitness，saidPolemarchus，forThrasymachushimselfacknowledgesthatrulersmaysometimescommandwhatisnotfortheirowninterest，andthatforsubjectstoobeythemisjustice。 Yes，Polemarchus，——Thrasymachussaidthatforsubjectstodowhatwascommandedbytheirrulersisjust。 Yes，Cleitophon，buthealsosaidthatjusticeistheinterestofthestronger，and，whileadmittingboththesepropositions，hefurtheracknowledgedthatthestrongermaycommandtheweakerwhoarehissubjectstodowhatisnotforhisowninterest；whencefollowsthatjusticeistheinjuryquiteasmuchastheinterestofthestronger。 But，saidCleitophon，hemeantbytheinterestofthestrongerwhatthestrongerthoughttobehisinterest，——thiswaswhattheweakerhadtodo；andthiswasaffirmedbyhimtobejustice。 Thosewerenothiswords，rejoinedPolemarchus。 SOCRATES—THRASYMACHUS Nevermind，Ireplied，ifhenowsaysthattheyare，letusaccepthisstatement。Tellme，Thrasymachus，Isaid，didyoumeanbyjusticewhatthestrongerthoughttobehisinterest，whetherreallysoornot？ Certainlynot，hesaid。DoyousupposethatIcallhimwhoismistakenthestrongeratthetimewhenheismistaken？ Yes，Isaid，myimpressionwasthatyoudidso，whenyouadmittedthattherulerwasnotinfalliblebutmightbesometimesmistaken。 Youarguelikeaninformer，Socrates。Doyoumean，forexample，thathewhoismistakenaboutthesickisaphysicianinthatheismistaken？orthathewhoerrsinarithmeticorgrammarisanarithmeticianorgrammarianatthemewhenheismakingthemistake，inrespectofthemistake？True，wesaythatthephysicianorarithmeticianorgrammarianhasmadeamistake，butthisisonlyawayofspeaking；forthefactisthatneitherthegrammariannoranyotherpersonofskillevermakesamistakeinsofarasheiswhathisnameimplies；theynoneofthemerrunlesstheirskillfailsthem，andthentheyceasetobeskilledartists。Noartistorsageorrulererrsatthetimewhenheiswhathisnameimplies；thoughheiscommonlysaidtoerr，andIadoptedthecommonmodeofspeaking。Buttobeperfectlyaccurate，sinceyouaresuchaloverofaccuracy，weshouldsaythattheruler，insofarasheistheruler，isunerring，and，beingunerring，alwayscommandsthatwhichisforhisowninterest；andthesubjectisrequiredtoexecutehiscommands；andtherefore，asIsaidatfirstandnowrepeat，justiceistheinterestofthestronger。 Indeed，Thrasymachus，anddoIreallyappeartoyoutoarguelikeaninformer？ Certainly，hereplied。 AndyousupposethatIaskthesequestionswithanydesignofinjuringyouintheargument？ Nay，hereplied，’suppose’isnottheword——Iknowit；butyouwillbefoundout，andbysheerforceofargumentyouwillneverprevail。 Ishallnotmaketheattempt，mydearman；buttoavoidanymisunderstandingoccurringbetweenusinfuture，letmeask，inwhatsensedoyouspeakofarulerorstrongerwhoseinterest，asyouweresaying，hebeingthesuperior，itisjustthattheinferiorshouldexecute——ishearulerinthepopularorinthestrictsenseoftheterm？ Inthestrictestofallsenses，hesaid。Andnowcheatandplaytheinformerifyoucan；Iasknoquarteratyourhands。Butyouneverwillbeable，never。 Anddoyouimagine，Isaid，thatIamsuchamadmanastotryandcheat，Thrasymachus？Imightaswellshavealion。 Why，hesaid，youmadetheattemptaminuteago，andyoufailed。 Enough，Isaid，ofthesecivilities。ItwillbebetterthatIshouldaskyouaquestion：Isthephysician，takeninthatstrictsenseofwhichyouarespeaking，ahealerofthesickoramakerofmoney？ AndrememberthatIamnowspeakingofthetruephysician。 Ahealerofthesick，hereplied。 Andthepilot——thatistosay，thetruepilot——isheacaptainofsailorsorameresailor？ Acaptainofsailors。 Thecircumstancethathesailsintheshipisnottobetakenintoaccount；neitherishetobecalledasailor；thenamepilotbywhichheisdistinguishedhasnothingtodowithsailing，butissignificantofhisskillandofhisauthorityoverthesailors。 Verytrue，hesaid。 Now，Isaid，everyarthasaninterest？ Certainly。 Forwhichthearthastoconsiderandprovide？ Yes，thatistheaimofart。 Andtheinterestofanyartistheperfectionofit——thisandnothingelse？ Whatdoyoumean？ ImeanwhatImayillustratenegativelybytheexampleofthebody。Supposeyouweretoaskmewhetherthebodyisself—sufficingorhaswants，Ishouldreply：Certainlythebodyhaswants；forthebodymaybeillandrequiretobecured，andhasthereforeintereststowhichtheartofmedicineministers；andthisistheoriginandintentionofmedicine，asyouwillacknowledge。AmInotright？ Quiteright，hereplied。